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Re: When is it not Controlled Feed ?
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Hot Core
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Controlled feed means that the cartridge is controlled at all times, be it by magazine, feed rails, follower, extractor, bolt face or chamber wall. As long as it is controlled from the instant you load the cartridge into the magazine, up until it strikes the ejector, it is controlled feed. The cartridge will always be controlled by at least two surfaces exerting opposite pressure....



Hey KurtC, Thanks again. Your last sentence above is the most concise and clear definition I've seen for a true Controlled Feed. It encompasses the way my old M43s worked as well as some of my long gone Pre-64 M70s.

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Two more questions:

1. Would you say then that a Controlled Round/Push Feed works the same as a Push Feed with the only differences being a larger Extractor and a "Fixed" Ejector?

2. Would you say that a Controlled Feed action that has the cartridge come out of the magazine but not go into immediate position behind the Extractor has a problem?
 
Posts: 9920 | Location: Carolinas, USA | Registered: 22 April 2001Reply With Quote
MacD37
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I had a good many 22Hornet M43 Winchesters with the single stack removable magazines. You could not single feed them because that Extractor would not snap over the rim. However, the Extractor did have control of the cartridge coming from the magazine in the first 1/2" of forward travel every time. It seemed like as soon as the Ejector cleared the Bolt Face, the Cartridge snapped up in place from down in the magazine. Obviously a few very "well timed" Controlled Feed rifles.



HC, in this case the system has to be VERY controled, because of the fact that the .22 Hornet is a "RIMMED" cartridge! The rim requires that the cartridge slide straight up between the extractor and the flange on the other side of the bolt face! Sort of like the rim being "DOVETAILED" into the bolt face. Additionally the cartridge is very short, so even if rimless the distance it would have to travel before it was grabbed by the bolt, would be shorter!

Quote:

So, if I follow your thought process correctly, the Cartridge does not have to snap into proper alignment behind the Extractor as soon as the Ejector is cleared by the boltface on todays rifles for them to be considered "properly functioning" Controlled Feed actions.




The distance it can travel depends a great deal on the length, and shape of the cartridge being chambered. IOW, if a cartridge is fat, for a long way down the case toward the bullet, it may require a longer push before it can pop out of the magazine! OTH, if the cartridge is steeply tapered,even if the same length as the cartridge I described before, it can move a much shorter distance before it snapps out of the magazine. All I'm saying, by this is, there is no set distance, that would be the same for every cartridge that would constitute a "PROPERLY" timed action. You would have to compare rifles all chambered for the same cartridge, for this to be so!

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I do see what you are saying about an "additional cartridge" not being able to get in the way regardless of how the bolt is manipulated. But, I believe that could also be true for a "few" of my Push Feeds.



The simple fact is, the PF can strip two cartridges off the magazine, without ejecting the first one, and the CRF cannot!

One thing you can picture in your mind is: Many times when a Buffalo is hit, and runs with the herd, it is practice to run after the herd to try to reduce the range, and to not loose sight of the Buff, so he cant surprise you! Think of this, you fire the first shot, and take off running after them, working the bolt to eject the empty, and bolting a new round into the chamber! With a CRF this is a possitive re-load, because the magazine, and the bolt have control of the new cartridge at all times durring the re-load! In the PF, however, the round is just lying in the open loading port, untill it is started into the chamber, and even then, if you are bounceing around while running,and jumping downed logs, and holes, the loose cartridge can bounce out of the rifle, with you closeing the bolt on an empty chamber! Now the wounded buff decides to turn and fight! CLICK!!!!!!!!!!!UH OH! OR....You inadvertenly, pull the bolt back, after a round has already come loose from the magazine, and when the bolt go forward again, now, you have two rounds in the loading port, causeing a jam! Either way it happened, you are in deep s&%t!

This can't happen with a CRF rifle, the cartridge is controled by the magazine till it is popped loose by the bolt, after which, the bolt has control of the round till it is either chambered, or ejected! The timeing however, is somthing that will be proper for the cartridge that is chambered in your rifle , and will be different for different cartridges!

None of these thing may happen in 30 yrs of hunting dangerous game, but...........It only takes one time to cost a lot!

I hope this is a little cleerer than mud!
 
Posts: 14634 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: 08 June 2000Reply With Quote
Hot Core
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... The premise of CRF is designed to ensure that a new round cannot be fed before the previous round has been extracted and ejected.

By beginning your discussion with an empty chamber, you're missing half the equation.

George



Hey GeorgeS, Thank you. You are correct in that I had not considered starting with a cartridge in the chamber.

So, lets say I had a spent cartridge in the chamber and pulled the bolt back far enough for it to be pushed out by the Fixed Ejector. Then I started the process of chambering another cartridge, how far is "too far" to move the bolt forward without the cartridge having exited the magazine and going under the Extractor(becoming controlled)?

Thanks.
 
Posts: 9920 | Location: Carolinas, USA | Registered: 22 April 2001Reply With Quote
Hot Core
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Hey KurtC and MacD37, Your responses have been both clear and concise. Thank you both for your insight.
 
Posts: 9920 | Location: Carolinas, USA | Registered: 22 April 2001Reply With Quote
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