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How long are we going to beat this topic to death ad nauseum? Time to move on guys! | ||
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That's the ticket! Let's explicitly sub-divide ourselves into two opposing groups. There's strength in that, for sure.  RSY | |||
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I thought this is a sometimes heated discussion about guns and hunting, not class warfare. As we all know, that dumb son of a bitch has a right to his opinions, even if he's wrong. Dave | |||
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Quote:Quote: Indeed, I was. Relevance? Hey, I didn't write the article. I just wanted to garner some feedback as to what it promoted. Never did I imply or state that it was an issue for us to get wrapped around the axle about, to the point that we feel we reside in two different camps. My point is that we all, together, have too much at stake in today's climate to get crossways with each other over such. One could just as easily turn the rifle-envy theory described in the initial post on it's ear and claim that the dislike for .45-70s and leverguns is simple snobbery. But, that wouldn't be fair, either. RSY | |||
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Fact #1 --- many hunters look down on those of us who go to Africa to hunt! They believe we have to much money, can't shoot, can't walk, coulnd't track a hippo thru a cornfield, couldn't see an elephant at 10 feet if it were painted day-glo orange, and rely on the PH to shoot all of our game while we sit in camp telling lies and drinking warm gin. Basically they think we are "dudes" who can't handle "real hunting" which many of them define as sitting in a tree stand wearing $500 worth of camo waiting for a 120lb white-tail to walk by. The sad part is many of these fellows will pay several thousand dollars to hunt white-tail and double or triple that on an elk hunt with a 70% success rate. Fact #2 --- in their minds they are thinking "I don't need no stinkin' $40K double rifle to shoot some cow (Cape Buffalo) my old lever-action 45-70 will do 'cuz I'm a real hunter". Just think about it a bit and go back over the posts that lambast people when they mention an "easy" hunt where they got lucky the first day of a trip ---- the crys of "You didn't earn it" are deafening. Bottom line is this isn't about ballistics or type of action, it's all about "I'm as good as you are and I could even use my $400.00 lever-action 45-70 to prove it". | |||
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Quote: Weren't you the fellow who started the other thread? Correct me if I am wrong. | |||
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Excepy for a few posts I've found this thread on the 45/70 much more civil then the previous ones. before you know it folks will be saying, "yes it will kill a buff, but it's not for me". I do wonder how JD Jones has claimed the geat slaying power for anything that walks from a necked down 444 case and a 45/70 .... from a singleshot handgun no less, for all these years and nobody jumps on his case about it? | |||
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Quote: Wort It was adequate because it was the best thing available, just like the 45-70 was 100 years ago. When smokeless powder came along most people adopted it in higher velocities. Only the really, really, really smart people saw through the ruse and stayed with Black Powder and Black Powder rifles.  | |||
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It's amazing how a thread can change and be hi-jacked. My original post, while intentionally provocative, didn't touch on if the 45-70 was "good to go" or not, only why some took certain positions......either get back on track or start you're own damn thread!  | |||
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Ray......your results aren't valid. (1) For these bullets to work the temp must be above 50 degres F, it was much to cold; (2) You were much to far North and West, there is a 'sweet spot" for these bullets East of Greenwich and South of the Equator; (3) Because of your grandsons size he was shooting "up" at the buff and not "down" so the powder wasn't oriented correctly in the case, and finally; (4) The glare from the snow must of gotten in the buff's eyes so he couldn't tell which way was down so he couldn't drop in his tracks.  | |||
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I tried real hard to stay out of this "debate" so I offer the following thoughts which BTW Have already been covered by many of you hare already but here goes: The 45.70 is an ANCIENT black powder cartridge that was given new life by stronger actions and smokeless powder. The argument that modern 45/70 loads "are better than the old Black Powder" express rifles might be true, but the fact is that ALL of them, even the huge 4 bores were inadequate for the big stuff and many men lost their lives with these. That is why we progressed to the newer NE cordite and smokeless powders. I have no doubt that the article written in Rifle magazines regarding the 45/70 are true, so are the myriad other articles about hunters taking "The Big Five" with handguns, bows, crossbows, spears, etc. The fact is that the 45/70 along with all of those I just mentioned are NOVELTIES, designed I supposed to "enhance" the sporting chance ( whatever THAT means) of the animal. Hell, a 458 Win Mag that gets slammed alot these days bring more MV AND sectional density to the table and how is the 45/70 "better." Give me a break. Yesterday I was watching a hunting show about hunting in RSA that must have been sponsored by the Swarovski folks. The hunter was a "regular" guy on his first hunt to Africa. When he was asked to describe and "show the folks at home" his hunting rig I almost gagged on my Gin and Tonic ( Blue Sapphire of course  It was one of these "Mickey Mouse" Lee-Enfield retreads from Navy Arms rebarreled and chambered for you guessed it, 45/70. That rifle I think goes for about 200 bucks wholesale and if you are lucky, probably holds 3 MOA. To make things even more ridiculous, he had a Swarovski scope on that piece of garbage and he was using Swarovski "EL" binos. Why am I bringing up all of this you ask? simple. Bringing that abortion of a rifle to Africa, let alone a 45/70 made about as much sense as well, using a 45/70 on Cape Buffalo given other choices out there or if you are trying to sell something... like 45/70 bullets.jorge | |||
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Thank-you Mickey and Alf. Makes sense to me. wort | |||
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Tankertoad: On the day that I climb aboard a Land Crusier to go hunt DG and the PH hands up a Marlin Guide gun for me to put in the rack and with which to back me up, is the day that I'll realize that I made a mistake in picking my PH. Heck, I'd surely think it was a joke! As a matter of fact, I really don't think I'd go with such an idiot, if he were serious. It's not just incidental that Pierr'e van Tonder, my "most favoritest" PH to date, after 25 years with a .375 and a .416, spent his hard earned money on a .500 Jeffery. I also remember when a PH with whom I was hunting was late one morning. When I asked about the delay, he said that we would be in some really thick stuff after buffalo that morning and he had gone and borrowed a friends .458. Killing dangerous game is what these fellows do for a living. And they want to keep on living. Is that so hard to understand? In another life, I owned part of a Wyoming hunting service. We always rolled our eyes and tried to get another guide to take the fellows who showed up with Remington 742 automatics and see-through scope mounts. Go to Tanzania and watch the PH's eyes roll when you pull out your 2800 ft. lb. of energy Marlin.. 18" barrel and all. They'll take you to kill your buffalo (if the Game Scout isn't particular about what's legal), but would much rather you had shown up without an "Invitation to the Tall Grass". As to Mr. Garrett... come on.. he's loaded up his ammo as fast as it can go... why doesn't he down load to get slower velocity, if your theory is correct. But I forgot.. Jack Lott didn't know do-do about hunting dangerous game... nor does Ray Atkinson... nor did George Hoffman... nor even J.A. Hunter.. They all hunt(ed) with .45/70's, didn't they? | |||
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As in the past, when this whole .45-70 subject has come up, this is getting tiresome. There's simply one thing that I really do not understand. Why are the pro .45-70 posters here such zealots about the cartridge? Why do they latch onto it and then feel they are on mission to prove to the rest of the world that it is a satisfactory dangerous game round? Why such loyalty to one particular cartridge? Why the obsession? Why is it so important to them to prove their point? I simply don�t get it. The fate of the world does not hang on this debate. If you pro .45-70 guys want to use a .45-70 on a Cape Buff, or something else, then no one is stopping you. Go ahead. Then report back to us how it did. But all of this theoretical stuff gets tiresome. Did I miss it, or have any of the pro .45-70 posters here mentioned how many Cape Buff (or other dangerous game) THEY have personally taken with the cartridge? They seem to be able to quote all kinds of other people's feats, articles, numbers, and web links but I don't think I've read any firsthand accounts from any of them. That has to be more than just a coincidence. I read somewhere that a guy named W.D.M. Bell thought that the 7x57mm was a great Elephant cartridge. And he shot something like 1,000 Elephants so he ought to know! If it was good enough for Bell, then it's good enough for me. Don�t tell me that a 7x57 is inadequate for Elephant because I already know the truth! I'm going to load up some 175gr solids so I can go to the range and practice next weekend. Now if I can just save enough money so I can afford to go on a safari after Elephant. Until then, I'll go to the range, shoot my 7x57mm, and dream about hunting Elephants!! Oh yeah... and tell everyone at the range that the 7x57 is a great Elephant cartridge and show them my "Elephant gun". Just my two cents worth.... -Bob F. | |||
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Quote: If it's tiresome, sir, in case you got here by accident, the title is "The Truth Behind the 45-70 Controversy". Don't log in. Still no answers. And why does anyone need to have hunted the "Big 5 or 6" or whatever to wonder at what makes one caliber better than another? I ask you, the experts, besides penetration, which the 45-70 apparently delivers in appropriate loadings, what is required, other than the PH's blessing? All I get is "my PH would look at me funny if I got in the Land Rover with a 45-70 anything". Regards | |||
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The 45-70 does not have the velocity to kill dangerous game! Just ask Vince Lupo!  | |||
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I think you hit the nail on the head, DB. People justify what they got until they get something better. My Ford Explorer will do anything a Range Rover will do; right up until I can afford my first Range Rover. JD Jones, on the oher hand, shoots his hand cannons 'cause he sells hand cannons. He may enjoy the thrill and risk too, but I bet if was he out there culling game for a living he'd pick more suitable guns for the task. | |||
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Tankertoad Said: Once again, you do not address the facts, and once again, IT'S NOT MY THEORY. I'm only going by what you folks say, and what the facts of penetration are. Why is this so hard to follow? Tankertoad, evidence is not evidence if you do not believe it to be so. The "facts" maybe skewed or unintelliagble to the actual results. You claim you are only going off of what others say... so why not find out for yourself if your so frustrated and lost?... Or instead of imagining things, why not accept you dont know, and quest to find out for yourself? Many folks here have no doubt a 45-70 can kill a cape buffalo, but dont much care because it makes for a poor choice. The 45-70 just kills to slow when the shoulder/spine isnt hit for fast follow-up shots. But agreeing that a 45-70 will kill a buffalo deader than a door nail is never enough for 45-70 fanatics, they want the world to know the "newly discovered" ballistic wonder of the world is the choice above all choices. Sounds like you cant handle freedom very well. | |||
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Quote: Gee, if you count me as a friend, you are really in need of help. Brent | |||
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How about Vince and his Rhino taken with a 45-70!  | |||
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Quote: Well, Judge, you, and all the others of you who purport to bring your powers of logic and reasoning to this debate, might want take a look at this link (http://www.seahook.com/bestbullet) to draw some conclusions in the PENETRATION VERSUS VELOCITY debate. The name "Garrett" is in no way associated with this article. Many of you all but called Randy Garrett a liar regarding his analysis on this subject, but even a superficial analysis of the chart here shows that, in the significant majority of examples, there was a DRAMATIC increase in penetration at the LOWEST velocities tested using these bullets. IF penetration is the goal, THEN lower velocities achieve it. IF penetration is what the vaunted PHs depend upon to kill, THEN what is the purpose of higher and higher velocities? IF caliber is important, THEN any .458 bore should be at least adequate. Now, WHEN manufacturers of bullets turn to the use of depleted uranium for projectiles, THEN we may want to revisit the velocity issue. Until then, please open your minds to the FACTS on penetration versus velocity. Now if you want to add what some believe is the mythical "hydrostatic shock" issue, that is another matter. By the way, Judge, I'll take that bet. Regards | |||
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Alf: I've got a couple of motions to suppress search warrants and a summary judgment motion I need to review this weekend. None have anything to do with buffalo hunting, but since you can find any darn thing, with citations backing you up... want to e-mail me a brief? Need a job? Dang, you're fast and on point! Thanks for the prompt and telling information. It's always a pleasure to read your posts!Reminds me of the quote, "Those who refuse to learn history, are damned to repeat it." (or something like that). One of the greatest gifts that God has given us humans is the ability to learn vicariously. It seems that if for 130 years the .45/70 was unsuitable for buff, that the .458 Win Mag "problem" (as Jack Lott called it) existed because factory ammo sent bullets into gradually madder DG at .45/70's best velocities... and not a single PH uses the thing... But some folks put their hands on hot stoves, just to see if their mother was kidding?!? Different strokes... And I'll bet you a dollar to a doughnut that if Randy Garrett could get 100 fps more out of a .45/70 (much less 500 fps), he'd do it in a skinny minute. You can only put some much s--t in a five pound sack... just watch me try to put on my britches some morning, if you don't believe me... Now, maybe that word picture needs to be in the .45/70 guys minds when they reject a roomy .404 for a limited capacity case. Thinking about it, I'm on the way to the Tall & Big Man's store to get me some bigger slacks!  | |||
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500grains, Apparently, you have not enabled the function in your preferences that permits private messages to be sent to you. Since you were kind enough to send one to me, I would like to reply. Regards | |||
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Quote: JudgeG, Once again, you do not address the facts, and once again, IT'S NOT MY THEORY. I'm only going by what you folks say, and what the facts of penetration are. Why is this so hard to follow? Do PHs go for penetration, or for some other magical, as yet unnamed, characteristic? Is a .458 wound channel from the PH's friend's gun somehow larger than the .458 wound channel from a 45-70? Did you not read the aforementioned link, which substantiated Mr. Garrett's data? Conventional wisdom dies hard. The "Flat Earth Society" still exists, even though that conventional wisdom has been somewhat discredited. Please tell me WHAT the PHs are looking for in a round in addition to penetration. As to muzzle energy, the fallacy in using it exclusively to say what is best for the task is to neglect the fact that the energy figure uses the square of the velocity, giving velocity an over-representation of its importance in the discussion. In point of fact, Mr. Garrett has NOT loaded up his ammo as fast as it will go. A 45-70 with a Hawk 400 gr FN can go to 2005 fps MV with 3571 ft-lbs ME. None of Garrett's 45-70 ammo of comparable bullet weight moves that fast. Why do PHs spend their hard-earned money for faster and bigger? I have no idea, other than the old saw "If a little is good, more is better, and too much is just right", but I'd like to get an answer other than "They've been doing it for many years, so they must be right". I work for a company that was so hide-bound that the unofficial slogan was "Why do we do it that way? Because we always have!", but that answer is obviously not going to cut it. This whole discussion begins to sound more and more like if-it's-rare-and-hard-to-get-and-expensive-it's-better caliber snobbery. Somebody, anybody, give me a reason besides penetration, because there has to be one. Regards | |||
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Quote: No sir, I feel people can disagree and still be friends. However, if you do not..I feel all the more sorry for you my Friend. Urdubob | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Re: The "Truth" Behind The 45-70 Controversy
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