Alf & Ray have made good points; no one is going to jump on any rifle they can't get ammo for. Since everyone is making RUMS, how hard would it be to come up w/ even enemic .404 loads. At least we would have brass & bullets.
As to specs. for reamers, my gunsmith used a Clymer reamer, my dies are from Redding & everything matches quite well. So, what is the real problem?

Gentlemen



I had a simular conversation with an ammunition maker. They also provided me with prints for the caliber. There will be no problem if you use the CIP dimentions. German and English still have to follow the CIP recomendations. Interesting is that a few prints from books like Frank Barnes been different than the CIP (the shoulder angle been incorrect). Ammunition makers follows CIP the rules for this caliber.



I guess PPG and Henriksen tool company makes reamers according to the CIP standard.



If one orders a 404 barrel or reamer it shall be made according to the CIP dimentions. I know people who have 404 rifle from H&H, Wickers, Mauser, Dumolin and Jeffery. None of these owners had any problems with shooting newer ammo with harder bullets.



I asked the same question to Harald Wolf, who saw no problem with the caliber. Harald has built quite a few rifles in this caliber, his advice was follow the CIP standard.



The only makers of ammo is Kynoch and H Wolf, I guess?



Cheers

/ JOHAN

Johan,

As we have discussed in the past the .404 Jeff/10.75X73 is not a lot of drama in Europe -- you just buy or make one and go shooting, but the lack of adherence to standards over here is definitely a problem.

It is interesting that we have standardized derivatives of the .404 Jeff in America (for example the Dakota cartridges and the Remington UMs and SAUMs) while leaving the base cartridge deliciously undefined as far as SAAMI goes.

jim

HunterJim,

In what mag will your article be published? Sounds very interesting.

I too have lusted for a 404 Jeffery for sometime. Could not afford an original, so looked into building one. Various chamber spec's, barrels bored .418 or .423 (LW offers both), and a lack of factory loaded ammo (in the US), eventually lead me from the 404 Jeff, despite it's otherwise excellent credentials.

Desire for a .423 bore was not abated, so I'm currently having John Ricks build a 404 Dakota, on a new Brno ZKK 602 I latched on to.

Brass and loaded ammo is available for it, as are Redding Dies. I bought 200 cases from Graf's that should last quite a while.

Interestingly John reported that the Redding dies would not correctly size the Dakota brass, and he was sending them back to Redding for a rework.

Sounds like anything with a 404 on it is covered by a dark cloud.

Regards,

Bob

Gentlemen,

On the subject of different specs in 404 reamers, don't get me started!

Many of you know my story, but it's too painful to go into now. I am up and shooting, but a circus dog has to jump through fewer hoops than I do to produce ammo that ignites.

GAHunter,

Yeah, I remember that mess. You STILL have my sympathies.

Reed

P.S. I happened into an FN Mauser in 404 Jeffery a few years ago and it's been perfectly fine for me. Perhaps I'm lucky it was chambered in Europe?

Shadow,

It will run in African Hunter.

I like the .404 Dakota solution too, I am not happy to see the cloud over your project.

GAHunter,

I read your original thread will it was happening, and your story got me going on researching the .404 Jeff. My working title has been "Who Killed the .404 Jeff?".
Lately I changed Who to What.


jim

Not being a subscriber to said magazine, but keenly interested in the .404 Jeff, how can I get a copy of your article?

I have built a lot of 404s and am building another as we speak..I use Norma brass and RWS brass that I bought some years back, I order .423 barrels from Lother Walther and my old reamer was a clymer, I now use Jim Brockmans reamer and he has had no problems with it...These problems are manufactured by people that are unfamilair with the caliber. I know of no good gunsmith that has had trouble with the caliber...Bill Harvey, Jack Belk, Jim Brockman, Dennis Olson, Bill Dowtin, D'Arcy Echols, Butch Searcy and as I recall Chic W. that posts here has made a few 404s, and a bunch of others have no problems with the caliber...I have Never had a problem, and have never been long without one, can't stand being short a 404, its my favorite DGR caliber of them all, I like that long sloping case that feeds like a greased pig and will extract even when problems occur, something these blown out shoulder new cases will not do as well....

I suspect it will be around forever as a lot of new stuff like Dakota, RUMs etc depend on 404 brass for their cases...

I just have not experienced all these made up problems and some of them were simply poor gunsmithing..

Ray,

There is a big difference between the effects of allowable tolerances in factory rifles shooting ammunition from other factories and what custom gunsmiths are capable of doing. I read your continuting experience with the .404 Jeff on AR, and it, combined with GAHunters project rifle, got me interested in the subject in the first place.

Of course there is also GAHunter's experience with his .404 Jeff project which we all got to read about here on AR; the threshold of pain was very high on that one.

Three large-market factory operations announced .404 Jeff rifles in '93, by '95 all those projects were dead, dead, dead. The handful of Ruger #1s that we see for sale from time to time are an all to brief reminder of what could have been.

There is also the .460 G&A, which is a .458" cartridge built on the .404 Jeff case necked up. I had an inside seat on a project to build a factory rifle chambered for this cartridge. It also was cancelled because the maker (a very well-known European company in this case) could not find a ammunition factory source that could guarantee production ammunition would maintain headspace.

Arts,

It will be a while before the article runs, plenty of time to subscribe.

jim

To put some numbers on this discussion as Lord Kelvin recommended, I have been collecting .404 Jeff cartridges to be measured.

Ray has graciously agreed to provide a Norma cartridge case to go along with the cartridges and brass I have accumulated (thank you Mickey!): RWS, DWM, Kynoch (original manufacture) and A-Square (thanks Mr. Smith). All are on the way to Thos. Burgess who is going to gauge the ammunition (thank you Tom).

I have also asked Westley Richards for a cartridge; I am given to understand that Wolfgang Romey makes these cartridges (the WR headstamp has two meanings).

The .404 Jeff was a great cartridge, and it would be most excellent if it returned from the dead as far as the factories are concerned.

jim

All right guys you're breaking my heart here. I have a serious case of gun lust for a .404. I figure that anyone who owns a .375H&H and a .470NE must have a .404 just to kind of complete the circle to make the man complete. At least that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

In any case I 've got several Win M-70' my .375 and another M-70 that used to be a .375 but now is a .458Lott (both stainless guns.) I hadn't purchased a M-70 in a while until rectectley I bought two .375's for friends. To make a long story short I wound up sending both of them back and having USRAC replace both rifles due to manufacturing defects. The new Winchesters SUCK, the quality control on them has gone right down the dumper.

Are the custom shop guns any better? I should hope so but I'm not holding my breath. I should think that a .404 M-70 in a matt finish all ready to go would be a neat rifle. Am I pissing up a rope on that one? Should I just build one? Any of you guys out there have any experience with the Winchester custom shop?

One way or another I'm going to own a .404. Winchester told me it'd be about a year before these rifles are going to be distributed.

Surestrike,
Why not contact Jim Brockmon and have him build you one on his simi custom. You furnish the CZ action from Brownell in 375 length..Thats a darn nice gun with a English style laminate stock that holds 5 down and 1 up....All done up right will get you an excellent gun in 404 Jefferys for about $1500.....

A custom 404 should handle RWS, Bell and Norma cases...

Jim,
I doubt the 404 is for everyone, I don't care if any factory produces it.. It's probably just for those who suffer from nostalgic tremours and chillbains...Otherwise a 416 Remington is every bit as good....

But if a factory does produce it then they should do their homework...If the custom boys can do it, surely the factory can, or are they less capable?, I don't know...

Ruger should have been able to handle that one, they had no problems with the No. 1 in 404 that I know of, so why the 77??...because they used the wrong specs, Many of the Custom boys could have told what specs to use or they could simply have purchased a few cases from Norma, RWS and Bell and gone from there, my guns have shot all three cases without a glich...

Your taking the right approach with Tom Burgess, why in the hell couldn't the beancounters at Ruger do what you are doing...They simply screwed up IMO, and all the CYA in the world isn't going to help them..Heads should have rolled.

I agree with Ray........I'd bet a dollar to a donut that CZ would be interested IF enough interest could be shown.

I've had 100 rds of RWS .404 brass "squirreled away" for several years, just in case. It resides next to my pile of .416 Rigby brass.

FN in MT

Frank, you need to get off that pile of brass & build your .404. I am loving mine right now. The .458Lott was too much of a good thing but this .404 is proving a keeper. Any truly good gunsmith can build one up on a M70 or CZ. Depending on the level of "frills" you want, you can easily beat the Custom Shop price.

Thanks for the input Ray,

I've got another little ditty in the for what it's worth catagory. I just got off the phone with Montana Rifleman Inc in kalispell. They are going to produce one of their Model 70 clones starting this summer in a .404 Jeffery it's called the PH model. The preproduction price is on special right now A stainless action is $525 and a stainless barrel is $179 they will sell you the actioned barrel for that price as well. The chormolly barrel is cheaper. I am rather partial to stainless but always have it blued or powder coated so it doesn't look so obnoxious.

In any case do any of you guys have any input on these Monatna actions? Good, bad or indiferent.....

Now that sounds like a deal. Just don't put a plastic stock on it. I think that it is illegal, or should be.

Ah come on Mickey I was thinking something in the Pink and green zebra stripe pattern. And a big ole Bushnell Banner 4-14 scope and oh yeah I was gonna request my rifle in a push feed action too......

Just kidding guys.....

Any ideas out there on a decent wood stock that won't kill me on price?

Ray will brockman stock the puppy for me in one of his European laminates?

.

Alf,

Thanks for making that post.

I have found an early slogan for the .404 in one of Gregor Woods' Man/Magnum articles:

"If you've got a .303 and .404, you don't need more."

jim

.

ALF, dammitall, it ain't appropriate to post things on this web that make a grown man cry. (sniff!) Heart-rendin', that man.

Very nice Alf!

That poem will be printed in scroll, framed and hung next to my elephant tusks and my 404.....thanks Alf.

Well some one was happy with the Ruger at $1850. It is sold. Some one please tell me why I did not buy a few and leave them new in the box to sell. Good grief talk about appreciation. I'd like to be able to sell my used guns for 3x what I paid for them. The only thing crazier than that is what a new truck costs