Stopping Rifles

15 June 2009, 12:14

wombat

Stopping Rifles

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
I thought I would jump in again. During the last couple of years of very intensive elephant hunting all across Africa,with out team filming several dozen bull elephant being shot from different angles and with a wide variety of calibers I, we(Boddington, Carter Fulson, and Danklef have had our eyes opened quite a bit as to the "stopping power" of the big bores. We have had several of the big boys on the scene .500, .577 .600 and .700 and all have been used on frontal brain shots on bulls from Tanzania to Botswana. Each of the above calibers was filmed on frontal brain shots on elephant bulls, several with some of them, that missed the brain. Some missed by less than six inches. The only''stopping" I saw was a bunch of startled bulls that stopped standing around and ran like hell for cover. I'm talking Kentucky Derby type running. No dropping to shock, no staggering around, no back end sitting down, I mean they spun the tires leaving. Have bulls been knocked out by close misses? I am sure they have, but I am here to tell you that I am no longer willing to believe in the ability, or better said, Probability that your, or my, big heavy will knock down a bull, especially a pissed off and incoming bull with "bullet shock" that missed the brain. Hunting always has exceptions, and I am not saying that it never happens, but I am saying that our team has spent one hell of a lot of time hunting Ele bulls and the film, of which I have plenty, does not lie. If you have confidence that your big hitter will knock a incoming bull down with"the'ol somewhere in the face shot"then I hope you have your affairs in order. I know I now place a lot more priority in placement than I do Knock out value. Like your "willy", bigger is only better if you know how to use it

Dear Dave-I have been reading back through these post and must express surprise that anyone can describe a shot that misses the brain by 6" as "close" -nonsense.Close would be 6mm or less.No one imagines that any calbre can compensate for a complete,wild ass miss of the brain (ie 6" away) but a near miss(<< 1" )with a 500 produces considerably more effect than a 375.

15 June 2009, 16:33

Saeed

quote:
but a near miss(<< 1" )with a 500 produces considerably more effect than a 375.

How many elephants hove you shot in the head and missed by this amount with a 375 and a 500?

Would you please enlighten us to the effect you observed of each shot?

15 June 2009, 20:25

Jeff Wemmer

quote:
Close would be 6mm or less.No one imagines that any calbre can compensate for a complete,wild ass miss of the brain (ie 6" away) but a near miss(<< 1" )with a 500 produces considerably more effect than a 375.

I missed a side brain shot with a .470 ond the ele went right down...Had to be anchored shortly thereafter (once the rest of the herd cleared the area).....I also missed a frontal brain shot with a .600 and the Ele just stood there like nothing happened. Luckly in this case I got offa second shot a second later and that was that.
On both cases the shots were no more than a few inches off. The .470 knocked the animal down, the .600 did not!

My limited experience is that animals react to bullet impacts in as many varying ways as there are calibres to shoot them with. No specific calibre will generate the same results from animal to animal, thus a conclusive statement that a .500 is better than a .375 can be realistically made.

JW

15 June 2009, 20:27

Jeff Wemmer

quote:
thus a conclusive statement that a .500 is better than a .375 can be realistically made.

TYPEO: "can NOT be realistically made"

JW

15 June 2009, 20:47

MacD37

quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
quote:
thus a conclusive statement that a .500 is better than a .375 can be realistically made.

TYPEO: "can NOT be realistically made"

JW

+1

Sometimes an animal simply refuses to die, with all the precise placement with the biggest rifle you can shoot from the shoulder. Convercely sometimes a 100 gr 6mm bullet will absolutely pull the Earth from beneath a large animal's feet. There is no way to tell which way the animal will react, so you simply place the bullets where you think they should do the most good, and follow you shot with a quick back-up, then be ready for the war if that doesn't work out!

IMO, one should use the largest accepted rifle for the job, that he can shoot properly! Beyond that pray, but there is no such thing as "OVERKILL"!
....................

15 June 2009, 21:07

465H&H

The statement "close to the brain" id froth with too many variables to be anything but confusing to the discussion. For instance, if the bullet travels within 2" of the brain over the brain it may not have the same affect as one that travels 2" to the side of the brain. We need to look at the construction of the bony material to see the possible differences. Above the brain we have bones that are a honey comb of paper thin bones and they are separated by air spaces. This type of bone is designed to not transmit shock. It is why elephants can butt heads with out getting knocked out cold. On the side of the brain are much harder and thicker bones that will more likely transmit shock to the brain. A bullet hit on the upper part of the ascending ramus (lower jaw bone) will probably transmit more shock because of this fact. It is one reason that most advise is to shoot low rather than high on a frontal brain shot.

465H&H

16 June 2009, 01:03

Will

It may be fraught with too many variables too!

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16 June 2009, 01:06

Will

Ya shoot too low than too high to try to hit the spine if you miss the brain.

16 June 2009, 02:13

JPK

quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
My limited experience is that animals react to bullet impacts in as many varying ways as there are calibres to shoot them with. No specific calibre will generate the same results from animal to animal, thus a conclusive statement that a .500 is better than a .375 can {not} be realistically made.

JW

It is the limited experience that leads you believe that no conclusive statement can be made.

Those with the greatest experience generally believe that cartridge selection really does make a difference, and that is why so many with great experience used not only 450NE class rifles for their primary weapon, but also very large bore rifles for certain purposes (and so too lesser rifles for others.)

Despite some disagreement, the combined experience of more than a century of hunters has lead to the conclusion that it matters as well.

But I certainly agree that how one particular shot effects one particular elephant cannot be conclusively determined in advance based on cartidge size.

JPK

18 June 2009, 16:12

wombat

quote:
Saeed

Dear Saeed,
Thank you for your enquiry.I have near missed two with my 500,one fell to the shot aparently brained but did not really go stiff till the second barrel,the other began to fall to the side of the shot before the second barrel caught it mid air in the right spot.These were frontal brain shots.The side on elephant was truely brained and fell upright onto its feet.
My limited experience counts for little but the views of the PH and camera man (also an elephant experinced PH) at the time were ,roughly,"you would have been shooting it up the arse with the second shot if that was a
375".You cannot compare the blow struck by a heavy rifle when you JUST miss the brain to the useless sting of a 375 class weapon,if you just miss the brain..As stated in my previous post-to miss the brain by 6" is about as useful as shot in the arse.

19 June 2009, 22:22

Canuck

quote:
Originally posted by Macifej:
quote:
a colostomy bag

Either that or some chicken livers in a Zip-Loc for good luck ...???

I believe it was mostly ketchup. Walter wanted me to wear most of it, IIRC.

20 June 2009, 16:45

Don In Colorado

I recall a report published by a South African agency a few years ago discussing injuries associated with animal charges. As I recall this report established two critical parameters for determining whether someone was injuried or not: the first being distance at which the charge started and; the second the caliber used.

If the charge was noticed when the animal was more than 30 yards away the charge was always successfully stopped with no injury to the hunter(s)regardless of the caliber used. However, if the charge started at a distance of less than 30 yards then stopping the charge was entirely dependent on caliber.

Again, as I recall, 12 charges (again startig under 30 yards) involved a "375-class" rifle. None (that is right, NONE)of the charges were successfully stopped and in all cases a hunter or hunters were injured or killed.

There were 8 charges that involved a "470-class" rifle with 5 of these charges being successfully stopped, but with 3 still involving injuries.

Three more charges involved "500-class" or larger caliber rifles with all three charges being successfully stopped without injury to the hunters.

A few years ago when this report was released I commented on the comparative statistics of these results and while it is a limited sample population I think that nonetheless the results can be used to conclude that in tight cover one is better off with a 500 caliber rifle than something smaller.

20 June 2009, 17:19

HJ wild

quote:
Originally posted by kibokolambogo:
quote:
Originally posted by JohnDL:
As regards buffalo, there MAY not be any such thing as a "stopping rifle."

I do not think that is true for lion and elephant however.

Stopping power is a colloquial term used to describe the ability of a firearm to cause a penetrating ballistic injury sufficient to incapacitate the target where it stands.
Some sporting arms are also referred to as "stoppers" or "stopping rifles". These powerful calibers are often used by DG hunters (or their PHs) for stopping a charging animal like buffalo or elephant.
If the shot is accurate enough to penetrate the brain it would clearly floor and instantly kill the animal. Should it miss the vital and intended target area, in most instances the impact would be sufficient to floor, divert or generally slow it down sufficiently for a following shot to be taken, hence the introduction and popularity of NE double rifles (.400 +)
A shot to the leg of a charging buffalo will unlikely produce the desired effects.

Amen to this! You are quite right - and the discussion could end here!
Hans

21 June 2009, 13:53

john.d.m

Bit of a silly question really,
My 22-250 stops magpies brilliantly, my 30-06 stops deer, plains game and Leopard too, and my 458 wm stops Buffalo.
Basically if you can use your rifle and put the shot where it counts it will be a "stopper"

21 June 2009, 14:13

gumboot458

quote:
Originally posted by Don In Colorado:
I recall a report published by a South African agency a few years ago discussing injuries associated with animal charges. As I recall this report established two critical parameters for determining whether someone was injuried or not: the first being distance at which the charge started and; the second the caliber used.

If the charge was noticed when the animal was more than 30 yards away the charge was always successfully stopped with no injury to the hunter(s)regardless of the caliber used. However, if the charge started at a distance of less than 30 yards then stopping the charge was entirely dependent on caliber.

Again, as I recall, 12 charges (again startig under 30 yards) involved a "375-class" rifle. None (that is right, NONE)of the charges were successfully stopped and in all cases a hunter or hunters were injured or killed.

There were 8 charges that involved a "470-class" rifle with 5 of these charges being successfully stopped, but with 3 still involving injuries.

Three more charges involved "500-class" or larger caliber rifles with all three charges being successfully stopped without injury to the hunters.

A few years ago when this report was released I commented on the comparative statistics of these results and while it is a limited sample population I think that nonetheless the results can be used to conclude that in tight cover one is better off with a 500 caliber rifle than something smaller.

.
.
. Just from the studying I have done , It seems apparent that when things arn,t going very right that around 6000 ft lbs gets the work done when less doesn,t seem to .., Why the Lott seems to work better than the Win Mag , imo .. This seems to be proved out by quite alot of writing , but no doubt many will argue this ... But realistically ask yourself if a 375 in the chest of a lion or buffalo will stop it from coming or going as fast as a 577 Nitro , and how many times out of 10 or 100 or 1000 it will .. And if at any time the 375 will stop an animal 20 feet away faster and more sure than the 577 will ...???????????????????

21 June 2009, 19:32

JPK

quote:
Originally posted by john.d.m:
Bit of a silly question really,
My 22-250 stops magpies brilliantly, my 30-06 stops deer, plains game and Leopard too, and my 458 wm stops Buffalo.
Basically if you can use your rifle and put the shot where it counts it will be a "stopper"

This post is way off. "Stopper" or "stopping rifle" really has had but one, maybe two uses in reference to African hunting through a century and more.

The primary use is regarding elephants. The secondary one widens the use to include rhino, buff, lion and maybe leopard or hippo too.

Can a 30-06 ever be considered a stopper? No. Ask Pete Fick if you doubt my word on it.

JPK

21 June 2009, 21:29

Will

Holy crap. Enough already. Some of this sounds like the endless drivel from drunks!

Folks that have stopped charges know what it takes and those that haven't don't.

There you go.