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Sorry to hear of these incidents, especially one of your friends. How in the world did one of the crooks have an "unlicensed" firearm????? SA is the perfect example of when "guns are outlawed only.... | |||
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Alf, The best to your friends...Yes, a prime example why we cannot give up our firearms..The right to keep and bear arms... Mike | |||
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I'm sorry to hear of your friend's incident and also his wive's injury. Is it serious? I hope she recovers fully. Not wanting to make a negative comment but just interested. If the gentleman hadn't started shooting would the thieves have just stolen the car and the wife not shot at? (my reason for asking is one of the justifications used by anti-self-defence people here is "use of firearms usually results in innocent parties getting hurt". On the face of it this incident seems to support that.) How brazen the crims in also busting out the wounded crim out of hospital! Is South Africa getting so bad that the crims rule the streets? | |||
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On another thread some people were saying that life is never cheap, but unfortunately some black South Africans think life is pretty cheap. | |||
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Thanks Alf. Personally I prefer to not have the "romance" and have a place to live where the only reason I need carry a firearm at night is to shoot maraudering foxes (though lions might be nice too  ). | |||
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Alf, no one wants to live in a dangerous environment. But if you have to live in a dangerous environemnt, would you prefer to be defenseless? And as to accidental shootings, they are due to poor training, poor judgement and failure to identify one's target. Here in the U.S. it is not legal to shoot someone for stealing a car. The shooter would face criminal charges. Only legitimate threats to life and limb justify deadly force in the U.S., unless it is a policeman using deadly force; then the rules are a bit relaxed. | |||
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I have never seen a country go to hell in a handbasket like So. Africa has with the fall of Apartied, sure they made some bit mistakes, but it was a better way of life for both the black and the white.... Lots of wild gangs running loose in RSA today and Zim is reaching a point that its worse... I would not live there unarmed for what good it would do, but at least I'd die fighting not tied up an clubbed or beheaded with a panga...I have no sympathy for these gangs of terroists and criminals.. I am sorry about your friend, it is a violent time. So much the shame that the controling power does not give a damn what happens to the white man, and even the head of state has said so publicly... | |||
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Wake up and smell the coffee as they say. The ANC was terrified, during the transition, that the more militant whites, the military, and the police would get together and derail the talks in a bloody coup. Remember, they were the 60lb weakling when it came to military muscle. They went out of their way to reassure everyone and to be inclusive. Some of their more ambitious agenda items were shelved, such as nationalization of banks and mines. Now that the police and the army are substantially all black, their next step is to disarm the white civilians, most of whom own guns and know how to use them. Since guns are all registered in SA, the govt knows everything there is to know about honest citizens' gunsafes. So first, they limit the number of guns per person, and the amount of ammunition. Of course, 90% of the honest citizenry complies. Next step, will be to prohibit new purchases. Then, at each 5 year "prove to me you still need that gun" review, they start confiscating what's left (when they take your one and only gun, it's too late to do something about it). The gun-toting population shrivels. Then the farms and mines, followed by the banks will be taken by the state for their own political purposes without any risk of civil war or armed uprising. At that point, there is no option for most whites, having been deprived of employment, land, and financial assets, but to leave in a bitterly ironic reversal of the waves of European settlement in RSA in the early years. Just like Angola and Mozambique, where the Portuguese mostly went back to Portugal, the whites will leave for some place where being Caucasian is not a financial handicap. Remember the Nazis...they confiscated the guns before they killed the Jews. Not saying there would be organized genocide, but taking a man's means of protection, his property, and his livelihood are just as effective. If SA citizens know what's good for them, they will refuse to hand over their legally-owned guns en masse. Otherwise, divided they are conquered. They need to get organized, and fast. | |||
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Russ, Quite true, and well said. | |||
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Russ This might be an over simplification BUT ALL the peoples of SA and Zimbabwe now must suffer the consequences of the shift in power that essentially came about by the [ extreme pressure ] politically and economically applied by our previous OLD FRIENDS the Western governments including the USA and UK in particular whom were some of the leading instigaters for change, they said the white man had no right to rule because he was and is the minority ... Regards, Peter | |||
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You can always hide your sinister agenda behind the cloak of consultation. Consultation looks so legitimate, but you can put together a nasty agenda from bits and pieces of other's practices. I would have written the preamble as follows: "whereas the police force is unable to cope with the rising tide of violent crime in South Africa, each citizen is encouraged to obtain and become proficient with firearms for the defence of property, family, and person". My philosophy: "You call 911, I'll call 9mm". | |||
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Russ, You beat me to it. I heard a rumor - have no idea how true it is - that Japan, Canada and the UK are actively helping South Africa with their new firearms laws. To my mind, the only laws we should have regarding firearms is to be legally required to shoot anyone who breaks into your house. Of course, we know how well that sort of idea is being looked at in the UK. A man confronted 3 armed robbers, he managed to get hold of a sword in his house, and injure one of them. Guess what happened? He was sentenced to jail for using deadly force. | |||
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Quote: I'd say this says quite a lot about these criminals mentality. The "natural" thing to do would be for all of them to engage the greatest threat; Mr. Coetzee, who was armed and firing at them. But instead, 2 of them start shooting at his unarmed wife. Unfortunatly this doesn't suprise me too much. These guys are vermin that need to be hunted down and exterminated IMO. But with the SAP I guess that's unlikely to happen. I hope Mrs. Coetzee has a swift recovery. Erik D. | |||
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ALF If you have the chance send my regards to Mauritz amd his family. I meet him two weeks ago in the gun store and had a nice chat with him. | |||
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Russ, Like you infer, the real, underlying agenda is the disarming and control of the people under the guise of crime control. Does anyone really think that Kennedy, Kerry, Feinstein, or Shumer really gives a crap about guns or related deaths, or is it increased taxes and people control? | |||
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500grains, Greetings from Texas, and BTW the .375 H&H is slowly rounding into shape. However, in Texas you are justified under the law (two classes in Concealed Carry to date) in shooting someone at your home, at night, if someone is trying to steal something. You may also use a firearm in defense of agravated (armed) robbery at other times of the day. An incident in Houston some years back involved a man killing a repo guy that was repossessing a truck out of the driveway - he was cleared. Even further back involved a man in the Dallas area, who, after several burglaries of his home stopped midday to check things out. He was distraught to find a burglary in progress and he ended up killing one burglar coming out of his window with a TV and another in the "getaway" car - using a 30-30 lever rifle. This guy was no-billed by the grand jury. A special law was passed in Louisiana giving special rights to people for the use of deadly force in the case of a car-jacking. I am by no means advocating shooting someone over property, unless you have lawyer as a close personal friend  , but only stating that, depending on where you live in the USA and the circumstances of the incident, you may indeed be legally justified using deadly force in the defense of property. People in Utah may be a bit more civilized than those running around the mean streets of Houston, Dallas, or New Orleans.P.S. "Don't Mess With Texas" | |||
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I don't mean to get too far off topic here, but I just can't resist posting these two quotes. Wise words. -Bob F. �As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow-citizens, the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms.� --- Tench Coxe, "Remarks on the First Part of the Amendments to the Federal Constitution," in the Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789 http://www.guncite.com/gc2ndnew.html �Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States. A military force, at the command of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power, and jealousy will instantly inspire the inclination, to resist the execution of a law which appears to them unjust and oppressive.� --- Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution (Philadelphia 1787). http://www.guncite.com/gc2ndfqu.html | |||
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Alf, I succesfully survived four armed robbery attempts only becauase I was armed, trained, alert and because in two occasions I managed to be the first to open fire. I witnessed in Johannesburg some yers ago an hijack were the unarmed driver was shot dead in cold blood after he surrender the key of his BMW. If he was armed at least he had a fighting chance. Instead of attempting to disarm the good citizens the Governement, if is serious about fighting crime, should give incentives for intensive training in defensive shooting to all licensed gun owners. During the last thirty years in South Africa, because I was carrying a gun and I knew how to use it, not only I managed to effectively protect my person but I was also a couple of times able to protect other people's life and property. The same day I will be eventually forced to surrender my weapons I will leave the Country, taking my business elswere. Too bad that some good people will lose their jobs. | |||
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Quote: The above statement, may be true in Utah, but it is not true in all the USA! In Texas one may use deadly force to stop any felony, and in the hours of darkness, one may use deadly force in the case of tresspass. There is no requirement to flee any criminal here, and you do not have to prove your life was in danger, only that the perp was in the comission of a felony! Car jacking is almost unherad of in Texas! The cost of that business is quite high here! In fact the rules of engagement, for a policemen, are more strengent, than for a civilian.  | |||
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Quote: God Bless Texas! | |||
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Quote: ALF, FIREARMS CONTROL is being able to hit your target, and if that target is a crininal, then that gun control is more necessary! Every person on Earth, has the GOD GIVEN right to defend himself, and his home, and family! Any government that takes that right away is a tyrannical government, no other way to say it! What the black government in RSA is doing is,clearly, by looking the other way, allowing ethnic genicide, by the black gangs! | |||
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Mac, what part of Texas do you live in, guess you aint been to Houston. | |||
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ALF - "Many speak of self defence and why you should own and pack guns, many are quite glib about it but reality is when a society all start packing guns like the wild west things get out of hand, innocent situations are misread and in the heat of the moment someone pulls a gun and who knows what happens after that." ___________________________________________________________ That old and misused idea about the "Wild West" in the United States, being one where everyone packed heat and shootouts were an everyday happening, is an extremely erroneous and exaggerated one which is constantly used by the anti-guns-owned-by-honest-citizens crowd. Actually, the "Wild West" shootouts were mainly a very lucrative figment of the authors' imaginations of the then, "dime novels," and later, more modern authors. These highly romanticized and "never happened" stories were later picked up by the movie studios, and then televison. Were there a few shootouts, mostly related to either the "cowboys" of the trail drives (which only lasted 20 years), or sometimes, Indians?? Yes. Were there outlaws? Yes. But mainly, firearms were used for procuring meat for one's family, or shooting pests and predators bothering crops and livestock. Were they also in the home, etc., for self protection? Yes, but given that most people were armed, self protection was rarely a necessity. Things in "the Old West," most certainly did NOT get out of hand... other than in the creative minds of authors and their editors "back East." If people in "the Wild West" were killed as often as we've seen in thousands of movies and television shows, and as often as we've read in the pulp fiction magazines and books, there would have been almost no one to settle the West. Don't believe all you see in the flicks and teeeveee, or read in the anti-gun press. FWIW. L.W. | |||
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Quote: I say it. There will be, if the whites give up their guns. The intention is obvious. | |||
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Quote: I am glad to see that TX is favors the victim more than other states. I actually think TX could have made it as a sovereign country. | |||
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Quote: Gringo,I'm 67 yrs old, and I've lived all over Texas, encluding Houston, and I hate to tell you this, but there is a lot of Texas outside the city limit of Houston, Texas! In Dallas for instances, there were about two carjackings per day when the "Must Issue right to carry" law was passed, in 1995. In less than a year after it passed, there may be one every three months today in Dallas. The jokers found, quickly, that the car jacking business came with some risk, after four or five of them were shot for their effort, the first three months. They still steal cars, but damn few are jacked with the owner in the car. Car jacking, in the state of Louisiana, was getting to deadly proportions, till their legislature passed the law that said you could shoot anyone trying to hyjack your car! After about a dozen perps getting shot for their trouble, those are on the wane as well. There were many people, like ALF, who predicted that there would be blood running in the streets,if the Texas CHL was passed. The gloom, and doom fell off the toungs of the decenters, as if they had a crystel ball. In studies of this state after 7 years of lawful licened carry, only 0.002% of the license holders have been arrested for any felony,not even mistemeanors, most were back child support,or non payment of educational loans, and all state licenses are revoked for that, including a driver's license, Doctor's license,and CHL. None of those arrests involved guns at all. The non-licensed population has a ratio of ten or eleven percent who have been, not just arrested, but convicted of felonies in that same period. Even that is low for the state, and most were as Gringo states in places like Houston, Dallas, and San Antonio. Houston's high crime rate dates back to the 1920s, when it was illegal to carry a handgun. The lawful citizen is not the one who needs watching,it is the un-lawful we need to regulate. Friends an armed society, is a very polite society! The old west was not as crime ridden as the so-called un-armed cities of today. In a gun ban society, only law abideing citizens are not armed. The last I heard MURDER was illegal, so if a person is willing to kill you to take your car,why would he abide by a gun ban law? The CHICKEN LITTLE syndrome of the pro gun grab folks, though misguided, and unfounded, is helped along by GUN owners who simply think they know more than they do, and agree with those idiots! The states where a MUST ISSUE license is available, the overall crime rate is down by leaps and bounds, since the passing of the law. This is a fact that the liberal, pro gun grab media will not tell you. | |||
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Alf That is the age old problem .... uniformed people outside of Africa, especially white people unfortunately tend to equate human rights, laws, guns, aids, and any other issue we might care to name and to make a comparison to Africa ... that is first BIG MISTAKE we all make ... Africa is a TOTALLY different beast with different rules of life, if you can call them rules ... When you travel to Africa forget everything you ever learned about home and start afresh and then you will slowly see how the real world of Africa works, it aint a playground for those that are not totally streetwise, and even for those whom are wise it still aint rosy | |||
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Alf, Most of those poor under age 25 "victims" you mention are what we like to call good riddance killings. When one gang banger/drug dealer kills another, we are all better off. Violent crime in the US is decreasing, while the more "enlightened" countries like England, Australia, and Canada are experiencing skyrocketing violent crime rates, despite extremely tight gun restrictions. Africa is a bad choice to use as an example of anything. | |||
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ALF, Please forgive me, but that is a ridiculous comment. A "polite society" requires more than an armed citizenry and sensible or no gun control. First and foremost, it must have a functioning and at least modestly effective GOVERNMENT, including a police force and court system that have the will to and actually do enforce the rule of law. The latter is the sine qua non of any "polite society" and it is sadly lacking in the examples you cite. | |||
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GregR The reason we in NZ downunder are experiencing more violent crime is because we have a lily white liberal government whom will bow down to ALL the bull..t new age crime experts whom say we must rehab the crim by letting him have a light sentence, often on Home Detention where he can re offend in the comfort of his own home, deal in drugs from home ... The government says because the jails are full the judges should be lenient on sentencing ... Hell in this place you can get away with murder and get only 10 years, and maybe serve less if you are a good boy and dont beat up any guards ... In NZ life means a short term of almost certainly less than 20 years ... We are full of do gooder socioligists liberal judges and polititions whom have lost the plot, they dont believe in punishment to fir the crime .... Peter | |||
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I knew it! It's the condensed milk that makes 'em crazy. Seriously, we are talking about two very different populations. The single most law abiding segment of society in the US (ahead of doctors, lawyers, policemen, and even politicians) is the segment that have concealed carry permits. We are polite and do our best to avoid shooting situations because we don't want to lose our CCW cards, we don't want to fork over $100,000.00 USD in legal defense fees, and we wish not to have bad dreams for the rest of our lives. That said, I will defend my life and health, and that of my family. Pistols bore me. That said, I still practice 5,000 rounds/year for something that I will run like hell to avoid (if possible). Handing a child an AK before they have developed the ability to understand right and wrong, or good and evil, in a destroyed society is no recipe for a happy outcome. I wonder where gunshot or panga wounds rate on the top ten list of causes of death in Africa? Aids and childhood illnesses at 1 & 2, with homicide/genocide a close third? All I know is that I cannot tell anyone "you must lie down like a lamb for your slaughter". If someone has the means to defend themselves or their family and we say "no, you must die to salve our social conscience", then we are complicit in their death or injury. JCN PS Having heard bullets crack past my head I will not second guess what happened to someone else, or what they did, in such a stressful situation. | |||
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Alf, Mac is right. An armed society is a polite society. Your references of the areas of Africa and the pictures you post to prove your point are not societies. That is chaos. Take the Texas example again. One of the things we do differently than in your example is on the side of law enforcement. We are much more dilligent in prosecution of crime and the punishment of criminals. Everytime I see the figures about how many executions of capital criminals Texas has done (as compared to other states) since reinactment I think "Yeah, we are winning." I know you can use the "Waco" example, but that was taken out of our hands by Clinton/Reno. We would have done it differently if given the choice and the proper reasoning. All it would have taken would be for the local sherrif to slide beside David Koresh as he was leaving the restroom at the local stop and rob. Real quiet like. The pictures you posted remind me a lot of the LA riots after the Rodney King verdicts. The blacks were in such an uproar that they decided to destroy stuff. Their own stuff. Outside of the white truckdriver (the name escapes me), the blacks ransacked their own neighborhoods. They didn't touch the white neighborhoods. I found it interesting that the safest place to be in those black neighborhoods during the riots was the bookstores. They were untouched.  You see, an armed society is a polite society when you do your part to keep the thugs off the streets. | |||
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> Furthermore the leading cause of death in that part of your > society for males under the age of 25 is by gunshot wound Yes, that is correct! And over 2/3's of those are shot by police officers during an attempted crime or attack on the officer or related incident. AND roughly half of the remaining shooting deaths are due to gang "wars" over "territory" and revenge killings. Does anyone REALLY think the "bad guys" are going to turn in thier guns??? Or for that matter that any of them obtained them legally? I am licensed to carry in my state but seldom do as I don't feal threatened here (a good thing, yes?). And the "polite society" quote is right on. Some of the most polite people I talk to are the ones I meet at gun shows ;-) Okay, down of my soap box, and no I don't feel any better given that we may have gun ownership curtailed here in the US if the wrong party wins... Damn Democrats | |||
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Quote: Alf, I'm the one that made the "chaos" comment. Why do we spend so much of our resources on these situations? I often ask myself that same question. We are a country of bleeding hearts. Nobody likes to see good people hurt and we think we have all of the right answers to the world's problems. Well, we don't. By now you would have thought we would learn that some people just don't want to be helped. They won't even help themselves. It is sad that you had to leave your homeland. But the reasons that you gave, I would have done the same exact thing. I'm not sure where you are located, but if you are near me, you are among friends. We are glad to have you. | |||
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