I met and talked to 7 different Phs on my trip. 3 from south africa and 4 frim Zim.
I asked about there rifles they used and why they used them.
3 out of the 7 shot 458 win mags. They said with the new powders and bullets the fire has gone out and the smoke is gone. Making it a fine caliber. One also owned a double in 470 ne but hated to travel with it as it was so $$$$$. So when out of town he used his win mag.
One shot a 500 asquare but he was as big as a house and it probally was like a 223 to him.
One shot a 458 lott and liked the extra thump. One shot a 375 HH as he was still trying to decide what he wanted for a bigger rifle.
And the last shot a 450 ackley stating he like he could shoot 450 ackely, 458 win mag, 458 watts, 458 lott . and he could form fire all his brass from 375 hhs. I shot all but the watts round out of the rifle and they all shot great!
But the bottom line was the same shoot what you shoot best and you will do fine.
Dean

[ 09-25-2003, 21:28: Message edited by: tonto ]

I don't think I'd be hunting with a guy who knew so little about rifles the he would shoot 375H&H out of a 458 LOTT, and think it was OK!

The 458 was always OK, if handloaded properly! It still is, "IF" handloaded properly! The big drawback the 458Win Mag has is too little powder capacity, to handle 500 gr bullets effeciently, without crushing powder, and risking hang fires, or even MISSFIRES on occasion. If one uses the 450, to 480 gr bullets, both softs, and solids, and loads the old 458 WM properly, it is a real work rifle, and will take care of business! There is no arguement, however, the 458 LOTT is what should have been the 458 Win Mag to start with, in the 375 H&H length action they already had!

[ 09-23-2003, 20:59: Message edited by: MacD37 ]

Tonto,

The calibers are interesting data, but what about the rifles themselves? What comments to you have on sights used, etc?

Were there common features? Who were the rifle makers?

thanks...jim dodd

The guys with 458 wins were still using 500gr bullets.
Jim
The 458 win rifles I saw were pre 64 winchester actions as was the ackley. All were rather plain looking with a single blade express sight. A sling was a thing you left at camp. Looked liked blueing was something a gun used to have.
I didnt see the 458 lott or 500 asquare.
Dean
All but one of these phs hunted DG for at least 6 months out of the year in several different countries. I only found it interesting as it was working knowledge not read from a book.

[ 09-25-2003, 21:30: Message edited by: tonto ]

Wow....now I feel really "slighted". My PH only had a Steyr Mannlicher .30-06. He used a .222 on Duiker and other small animals.

His gun was incredibly worn as though it had seen a very lot of use.

I didn't really expect that a PH on a plains game hunt in RSA would carry a Champlin-Thumbhorst .470 double however.
The outfitter did proudly show me his .460 Weatherby rifle for Cape buffs. It was pretty!

I doubt that one would get in trouble fireforming 375's in his Lott, since it head spaces on the belt...I just wouldn't want a 375 rattling down my gun barrel...However everybody used to fireform 35 Whelens by fireing 30-06 through them, it was an accepted practice back when...I never heard of anyone getting harmed but again I would not do that either...

ngagi
The 375 looked just like a 450 shell after firing and i saw no cracks or ect. My lott shell was close just a bit short. I dont know anything other than what i saw and was told. I am sure there are better ways to do this. But not sure how many ways there are out in the bush.
Dean

Actually, the best way to produce .458 Lott casings is to buy .416 Rem mag casings new and just run them through a full length sizing die for the .458 Lott.

No need to fire form at all.

The accepted way to "FIREFORM" 375 H&H cases into 458LOTT by fireing in the rifle, or sizeing die, is: One uses a special mold, made by Walt Millander's (may he R.I.P.) NEI molds, that casts a lead bullet that has a shank that is .375 dia, and a front half that is .458 dia! When seated in the 375 H&H case, the .458 portion just touches the rifleing, a light load is fired, safely fireformong the brass, without damageing the rifleing with a jacketed, and expencive, bullet that is .083 tsnds undersize! The best way to form the case without fireforming is to use a taper expander to open the case mouth, then full length size in your LOTT die set, square case mouth, load, and shoot as is!

[ 09-24-2003, 23:28: Message edited by: MacD37 ]

You can also fireform 375 cases to 450 Ackley with 20 grains of bullseye pistol powder covered with a small amount of cotton batton to keep the powder against the primer, fill the case to just short of the neck with cereal and fill the balance with melted wax. Point the rifle straight up and fire. Same process for 460 Weatherby to 500 A-Square etc. The fireformed cases will be ready for full power reloads.
Take care,
Dave

Most of the posts are correct, there is more than one way to skin a cat....

Since I want a proper head stamp, I'll just buy 458 Lott Brass, it has become available recently I understand...In the past I just bought cylinder Magnum cases, trimmed them and loaded them.

375 and 416 brass must be trimmed to lenth and both should be fireformed once before making hunting loads.

I noticed you said all rifles had a SINGLE BLADE rear sight ( I assume fixed ). I am a very close associate of Mr. Murphy and have often wondered if he was the one that thought up putting three to five flip up V notched sights on a Double rifle?
Seems like an embossed invitation for problems to me.

With Hornady producing 458 lott brass, the best way to form the brass is not to form it at all, but rather buy it.

old and slow
That is why they said they had only one blade as the others can get flip up and not noticed. Yes the rear sight also was fixed.
Dean
One night I was going to do an internet search for the closest Gander mountain to camp Kabuba to get some brass but I got side tracked.


[ 09-26-2003, 19:32: Message edited by: tonto ]

Can't confirm the validity of this but an aquaintence of mine said his PH said he had used the same 458 solid to kill three different buffalo. Dug it out, wiped it off and reloaded it. Showed him a cartridge ( reload #4 mind you ) and my friend said the bullet looked like a barber pole. Don't know who's solid it was. I would have at least miked it first myself. Now thats recycling if it's true.

[ 09-26-2003, 20:39: Message edited by: Old & Slow ]

Heres one for you they told me that one time they patched the muffler on the truck with wet elephant hide until the end of season.
Dean

I have no doubt of the validity of the two above posts, typical African do with what you got approach..

Gentlemen,

"Necessity is the mother of invention" is more true in Africa than anywhere else, when it comes to guns and ammo.

PH that I know have used:

585 Nyati
460 Weatherby magnum
450 Ackley
416 Weatherby magnum
375 H&H magnum - several

While hunting in the Zambezi River valley one year, we had an extremely hot day. Our truck kept stopping because of vapor lock in the carburetor.

The PH solved that problem by getting a small can and filled it with petrol. He had one of the trackers sit inside an open bonnet, and pour petrol into the opened carburetor ball. We were able to drive most of the afternoon that way, until it got cool enough for the truck to run normally.