Depending on what this number is, I suspect that the value of a double may be significantly influenced by the number of rounds that have been shot through it.

If I found a nice double with good bores but off the face, I'd make the seller knock off as much as I could and get it fixed..You can get some good deals that way.

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

For us "single-tube-rifle" shooters, what does "shoot off the face" mean?

Rick.

(I have a Mossberg pump that will try to shoot off your face if you put 3" magnum slugs in it.)

There is more than one reason why a double rifle comes off face, and over pressure is one, but as long as factory ammo or eqivelant loads are used, the off face is more due to ware on the surfaces of the hinge pin, and the mateing surface of the lump hook. If these two surfaces are kept clean, and properly lubracated, many , many rounds can be fired through them without comeing off face. I wish I had enough money to shoot a 470 NE, or 500 NE, enough to make it go off face. At $10 minimum per shot, it will cost you several thousand dollars to SHOOT one of face. Unless it is off face when you buy it, it is a non-issue. Just don't go looking for high velocity in a double rifle, and keep it clean, and lubed, and don't worry about it!

I have doubles that are 100 years old, and are still as tight as they were the day the were made. Champlin's has a double, right now that is slightly off face, and it is a bargin, and can be fixed. If I were the seller, I would have it fixed by Champlin and raise the price. The rifle is a consignment I think.

------------------
..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

How many rounds per year do you put through your doubles?

Thanks for the tip on the double at Champlin's. I'm kinda on the lookout for a double that won't put too much of a dent in the old paycheck.

JohnTheGreek

Is that the Jeffery 450/400 for $7750 at Champlins?

I have had my eye on the H&H Royal in 577 NE for $42K, but I was hoping they would lower it to $10K soon.

BigB

[This message has been edited by 500grains (edited 01-24-2002).]

You see a lot of old doubles that are pretty tight. It must take a long time, with a good double.

I think MacD37 is talking about the Wilkinson in 375 2 1/2. Kinda neat gun for the price but I think .40 cal. or larger is my personal rule for doubles. That said, if this gun were in the 3" flanged config. I would probably look at it a whole lot harder.

Regards,

JohnTheGreek

------------------
Andr�

quote:

---

Originally posted by 500grains:
Ray and Mac,

How many rounds per year do you put through your doubles?

---

500, I don't shoot as much the last couple years as I used to, but before I moved into the city, I shot a couple hundred rounds a month with doubles of many different chamberings. I will say I shot the smaller chamberings a lot more than I did the big boys! Reason? COST $$$$$$$$ But when I did shoot a double, regardless of chambering, I used them to shoot jumped jack rabbits for practice. This will teach you to soot in the reactionary mode, quicker tan anything. When you get to where you can dust one out of three jacks with your double, you are as ready for Leopard in the grass, as you will get.

That 450/400 3" #20175 at Champlin's is a real bargin, but is not loose, it is a quality rifle, and as they said the pictures were taken prior to case coloring the action, trigger guard, and lever. If I could afford another right now, that one wouldn't be at Champlin's today! $7750 is a buy on that rifle.

500 It think we would be in compitition for that H&H at $10k!

jhaney, The greener helps, but what must be avoided is abuse! Over pressure's no 1 cause is swelling chambers, and eventually shooting off face. The care and cleaning of a double will give the longest tight life. I have rifles that have no third lock-up at all, but are tight as a drum.

BigB, even handloading you will never see it off face if you take care of it, and don't get crazy with pressure. Even the cost of Handloading a 470 NE is expencive.

JohnTheGreek, you are right about the Wilkinson 375 2 1/2" being the one. I like doubles over 400 myself, but I have a lot of doubles in deer, moose, and black bear chamberings, and guess which gets shot the most my 577 NE, or my 8X57JR! The 375 2 1/2" is almost exactly the same as a 375 Win Mag, in power, and as such would make a fine woods rifle for just about anything in North America, where you will do ten times as much hunting, as you will in Africa.At $3900 one can't go wrong. If however you want it strictly for Africa, then NO!

Andre' Mertens learned the hard way that a double will not tolerate high pressure, but I would bet he never goes down that road again, with a double rifle, eventhough he was lucky, with the free repairs he got from FN!

Too all posters, the Bargin of the month is the Chapuis 470 NE Ejector at $8950 at Champlin's I have never owned a Chapuis, but I have friends who do, and I have shot a couple of them. I like them, and if a guy wants one "RIGHT NOW" for a trip this year, this is the buy, in my view! if he can live with extractors, then the Merkel is it. If he can wait for one to be built, then it would be a Searcy, hands down at that price!

------------------
..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

[This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 01-24-2002).]

[This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 01-24-2002).]

[This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 01-24-2002).]

Mac,

What do you think of a 500 BPE hammer gun for hunting Africa?

I shoot my double less than any of my guns, simply because I don't want to add unessisary wear on it...

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

------------------
..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

From your post I conclude that if I am going to shoot elephant, I should stick with perhaps an 8 bore. Maybe a 10 or 12 bore, or 577 BPE will be ok for buffalo.

Am I on track?

Thanks.

I personally would rather have a good 375 H&H with some good loads for Elephant than a 500 BPE! It is simply a matter of what YOU want to do! If the 500 BPE floats your boat, then do it! you will, no doubt, have adiquate back-up!

------------------
..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

I will ask Heym.

HOW is this condition repaired? And I assist the above poster: do Greener cross bolts help? Also the little flange occasionally seen to the sides of S/S guns.( to the sides of the rear of the barrel with a corresponding cut in the barrels.)

Good shooting! H

------------------

quote:

---

Originally posted by aHunter:
Merkel says they proofed a 9.3x74R for 5000 shots, and it was o.k. They tested a .470 for 500 rounds. I told them, that this is a little low ( if one does reload, factory rounds and 500 shots for practice and at game ? ).

I will ask Heym.

HOW is this condition repaired? And I assist the above poster: do Greener cross bolts help? Also the little flange occasionally seen to the sides of S/S guns.( to the sides of the rear of the barrel with a corresponding cut in the barrels.)

Good shooting! H

---

aHunter,
I have a 9.3X74R Merkel, and I doubt 5000, or even 10,000 rounds of factory, or equivilant will substantually loosen it if maintained properly!

500 rounds testing the Merkel 470 is a lot of testing, for a rifle that sells for under $10K. At retail prices for Federal ammo,($200 per 20 rds) that is $5,000 worth of ammo.I submit even with the saveings by handloading 470 NE, I think it would be doubtful that you will ever fire 500 rounds through your 470, additionally, if you maintain it properly, I don't think it will hunrt it.

The condition is repaired by replaceing the hinge pin, if it is removable. If the henge pin is not removable then the existing surfaces of the chopper lump hook, and the mateing surface on the pin are tig welded to build them up, then re-fitted.

The Greener cross bolt helps, as do the side clips you describe,both features on Merkel rifles, also help. one item that nobody has asked about is the re-enforcement of the action bar, with the little bulge that runs from the side of the standing breach, around and along under the barr, at the mateing flats of the action, and barrel flats. This is not noticed by many people, but is actually more important to the stringth of the action than a top third fastener.

Go to www.champlinarms.com and click on services, the repair is described there, as well as the cost!

------------------
..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

I am not suggesting that a 500 BPE is sufficient for elephant or buffalo. Instead, I am trying to gain an impression of which black powder rounds when loaded with smokeless would be sufficient for elephant and buffalo.

As I understand it, a 577 BPE pushes a 650 grain bullet at 1800 fps. In my book that would be minimum for buffalo due to penetration issues, and would be inadequate for elephant.

I am not sure of the ballistics of a 12 bore, 10 bore or 8 bore rifle, but I am guessing that an 8 bore with a 1200 grain bullet at about 1400 fps would be ok for elephant and buffalo.

Other than 4 bore, are there any other black powder rounds that could reasonably be considered for elephant?

Thanks!

__________

AHUNTER,

Please let us know what Heym says in response to your inquiry. I would be very curious as to their response. What is your opinion of their double in 500NE?

__________

By the way, as to the cost of reloading 470 NE, if Hawk bullets are used at $36.50 per box of 50, and if the brass never wears out, 500 rounds would run about $500.00. If it took 100 brass empties to get there (5 firings each), then 500 rounds would cost $700. Not bad!

What are the ballistics of a 12 bore x 2.5" black powder rifle? For about $5K there are several beautiful antique hammer guns available and I wonder what game they would be suitable for.

Have any of you ever thought of reboring and rechambering the smaller calibers less expensive doubles to one more larger and more desirable? I have a friend in Maple Falls Wa who is very busy just doing that kind of work. I have not seen his shop and have to go over some time and visit. He designed and built the machine he uses.

Not advertising for him, he hardly needs it, just wondering if any of you have taken that path.

The reinforcing area that MacD37 refers to is called the "swell." It is a swell of the metal where the face and bar of the action meet, nicely done with rounded radii instead of angles. This is important for strength and stiffening of the action.

The Merkel 140 does seem to have all the strength tricks. The swell, side clips, Greener crossbolt third fastener ... hey, The Duke liked Greener shotguns in the old western movies. Its massive chopper lumps and hinge pin fit tight. The tolerances are tight and flawless in metal to metal and wood to metal fit.

So we have been told that Merkel tested the gun for 500 rounds of Federal TBSH factory loads too. And, I presume the 140 did not shoot off the face, it passed the test as well as proof.

I have not found any prescribed number of rounds that will cause a good gun to shoot off face, no rules of thumb in my 20 plus years of reading casually. I have a 470 NE SXS Merkel 140 and a Ruger O/U 338 WM. I suppose I will keep a tally of rounds fired and see what happens.

High pressure loads and rough use will surely hasten the process.

Do not snap a gun open or closed by whipping the barrels up or down. Do keep all action surfaces where wear might occur clean and well lubricated. Do not exceed the original ballistics: 500 grains at 2125-2150 fps for the 470 NE.

Note that the original Cordite loads gave 2125 fps with 14 tons per square inch/28,000 psi. The Reloader 15 loads with filler move the 500 grain bullet along at 2150 fps with pressures closer to 12 tsi or 24,000 psi.

I think that with the modern ammo the well made new double 470 NE will last far longer than 500 rounds before it gets loose, if otherwise the gun is treated well.

If buying an old double, check to make sure that someone has not peened the radius on the forward lump that mates with the hinge pin to make the gun seem tight temporarily. Check all the other bites as well, "ring the barrels," etc., etc., ...

------------------
Happiness is a warm double and a bloody spear, but a 375 or a 416 will do just fine!
RAB

quote:

---

Originally posted by DaggaRon:

Note that the original Cordite loads gave 2125 fps with 14 tons per square inch/28,000 psi. The Reloader 15 loads with filler move the 500 grain bullet along at 2150 fps with pressures closer to 12 tsi or 24,000 psi.

---

A very good post DaggaRon, and all correct EXCEPT, the tons listed above are LONG TONS, a LONG ton is 2240 lbs, not 2000 lbs

14 Mtr tsi= 31360psi

12 Mtr tsi= 26880 psi

Almost all Nitro proofed doubles are proofed for 40,000 psi, but that is the high end for sustained use. The actual proofing is much higher pressure than the proof marks indicate. Though the modern steels make a big difference, the technoligy is still 19th century, and must be treated as such when loading for them.

------------------
..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

[This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 01-28-2002).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by 500grains:
Mac,

#1
I am not suggesting that a 500 BPE is sufficient for elephant or buffalo. Instead, I am trying to gain an impression of which black powder rounds when loaded with smokeless would be sufficient for elephant and buffalo.

Thanks!

__________

#2
By the way, as to the cost of reloading 470 NE, if Hawk bullets are used at $36.50 per box of 50, and if the brass never wears out, 500 rounds would run about $500.00. If it took 100 brass empties to get there (5 firings each), then 500 rounds would cost $700. Not bad!

---

#1
500, If all you want is something that will work if everything is perfect, then you have it with the 500BPE, But I'd bring back up!

#2
Right $700 for 500 rds is not bad, for sure, but I think you are forgetting the 20, or so lbs of powder@ $20 per lb to fill those cases 5 times each. Still much cheaper than 500 rds of factory @ $200 per 20 rds.

You may be lucky and actually get 5 workable loads out of the brass, but I have my doubts. You see doubles have a tendency to bend brass slightly, makeing the rim slightly out of square with the case body. I is often necessary to rotate the rim in the chamber to get the rifle to close on bent brass. These can be used for paper punching, but all hunting ammo should be new factory ammo, or vergin brass in hand loads.

What I do is buy 100 pieces of new brass, then set asside 10 pieces to work up loads, Once the "SWEET" load is found, I set the 10 pieces of barss asside, and lable "TEST", then load the other 90 rounds with the Sweet load, box,seal, and label this as my hunting ammo! This way you will get a lot of fresh hunting ammo with out damageing your whole lot of brass!

------------------
..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

quote:

---

Originally posted by Customstox:

Have any of you ever thought of reboring and rechambering the smaller calibers less expensive doubles to one more larger and more desirable? I have a friend in Maple Falls Wa who is very busy just doing that kind of work. I have not seen his shop and have to go over some time and visit. He designed and built the machine he uses.

Not advertising for him, he hardly needs it, just wondering if any of you have taken that path.

---

Customstox, The barrels on most double rifles are already as thin as they can stand to be made to cut weight. The little Pedersoli COLT REPLICA is one that may be a candedate for re-boreing. The barrels are left fairly thick. I have one that was 45-70that has been re-chambered to 458 RCBS, a wilt cat that is simply a 45-70, with a 2.75" length case, and it regulated perfectly, but that was just luck. Almost anything one rechambered, and rebored to would have to be re-regulated most of the time, and you would still have a modified rifle. in the case of double rifles CUSTOMIZEING reduces the value for investment. The Pedersoli would clean out to a 450 NE 3.25", or even a 500 NE 3" but I would add a third fastener, though the rifle has plenty of barrel meat to contain either!

STOX, can you E-mail me the Number of your friend? DUGABOY1@aol.com

------------------
..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

------------------
Happiness is a warm double and a bloody spear, but a 375 or a 416 will do just fine!
RAB

Chic

I had my gunsmith to check with our goverment gun test department, they said they would proof the set up with the 450NE if it would be fine after 4 rounds fired.

They also stated that the system is not suitable for the heavy caliber, actually it would not surprise that it will shoot off the face with the 9.3x74r after a few hundred shots.

My gunsmith warned too, that it might happen that the action will be strechted very soon if I use the 450NE in this O/U double.

Sad story - I will not take the risc of ruining the double and loosing the money for the change barrel set... sniff.

Does anyone out there really have experiance in rebarreling a kind of shotgun action to a DGR caliber and how long this will last then?

Franz

------------------
Franz A. Holzer

Franz@Holzer.com

/Husky

turning a shotgun into a double rifle is a touchy subject with some, but if the right shotgun is used it works like a charm, but it isn't a cake walk. Searcy made many double rifles, years ago, chambered for 470 NE on Browning BSS shotgun actions, but they were re-heat treated, and had a third fastener added. I never have heard of one of his conversions failing in any way. The rifles he makes today are made from scratch, and are not conversions, but rifles to start with. They are made on CNC machinery, and are probably as strong as any made today, regardless of price, or name.

The SKB O/U 20 ga shotgun, makes a fine little 30-40 Kreg rifle. I built one of the SKBs up this way a few years ago, and it was used for many, many rounds of ammo without a problem of any kind. The Tikki 412s, the BSS, and the SKB, are all Mono-block actions, and are far easier to rebarrel than chopper lump barreled guns.

Another option with the TIKKA, (Valmet) 412 is, to find a set of 375 Win Mag barrels for it, then simply re-chamber to 375 JDJ
(a 444 Marlin case, necked down to 375). The 375 Win Mag barrels have a 1-12" twist, which is perfect for the 375 JDJ, and this way you still have the mechanical Re-regulate feature intact. The 9.3X74R you have now is a fine cartridge, and with the proper loads, is legal for dangerous game in Africa, in all countries except Tanzania!

------------------
..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

[This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 01-28-2002).]

[This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 01-28-2002).]

U.S. short ton = 2000 pounds avoirdupois
U.K. long/imperial ton = 2240 pounds
metric ton = 1000 Kg = 2204.6 pounds

The traditional British cartridge chamber pressures were surely in the long ton, eh?

In long tons:
12.0 tpsi = 26,880 psi
14.0 tpsi = 31,360 psi
15.0 tpsi = 33,075 psi

I have referred to both Alexander Gray's _the Hammerless Double Rifle_ as well as Graeme Wright's _Shooting the British Double Rifle_. I have found no mention of "metric ton," but I seem to recall the long ton mentioned somewhere else, perhaps Taylor?

Gray says the proof loads were 20% to 50% higher in pressure than the operating loads.
He showed examples of proof marks that indicated one Nitro Express rifle was marked as proofed to only 15 tpsi. Apparently there was no hard standard on proof pressures.

------------------
Happiness is a warm double and a bloody spear, but a 375 or a 416 will do just fine!
RAB

[This message has been edited by DaggaRon (edited 01-28-2002).]

A correction to your correction. Here are the correct conversions to pounds for all forms of "tons"

Metric ton = 2204.6 pounds
Long ton = 2240.0 pounds
Short ton = 2000.0 pounds

If the english gun was proofed to metric tons the it would be 30864.8 psi.

I have always been told the Brits proofed to long tons if this is the case it would be 31360 psi.

If Daggaron was originally correct then it would be 28000 psi.

As I recall the United Kingdom did not go SI until after the second world war.

Todd E

I think someone in the U.S. was turning shotguns like the Browning SXS into 470 NE back in the eighties. Maybe Searcy? None lately that I have heard of.

I do have a Ruger Red Label O/U that makes a fine 338 Win. Mag double rifle, but I don't know the gunsmith there either. It was a used "curio" that is still tight. I use Reloder 22 at low pressure to get 2500 fps with 250 grain Hornady RNSP's, and it groups well with this load.

------------------
Happiness is a warm double and a bloody spear, but a 375 or a 416 will do just fine!
RAB

To be continued

/Husky

I had the long ton= 2240 from the Bituminous Construction handbook, but though I can't find it now the the 2833lbs for the metric ton, was written on the flyleaf of my copy of Graeme Wright's book, and I assume I got it from inside some place, but I'm dislexic, and have a habit of writeing numbers incorrectly. In any event, as you say, it is an incorrect measurement, no matter where it came from.

------------------
..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

[This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 01-28-2002).]

I believe that Ray also knows and maybe uses David.