Did ya'll read 458s article in the latest issue of Successfull hunter magazine..458 posts here, and is the best Alaskan bear guide in the modern world, and he ain't no slouch at writ'en gun stuff and hunting, at least for a recluse who lives in the Bechrof National Wildlife Refuge that adjoins the Katmai National Park in Alaska..Also pretty handy with a flyrod..

Yes, I do have an ajenda in this post!

Maybe I've missed it, or haven't bought it yet. What's the Issue and what's the page?

Thanks.

July/August pp 52 Title: Buffalo on the American Serengeti by Phil Shoemaker...Has a Pronghorn Antelope on the cover..Just got mine in the mail...Also in the article is another AR poster known as Palmer on the forum or Allen Johnson to those who know him, he is quite a hunter in his own right and goes to African about every year since I have known him...Great guy...

Ray: I have not read that article, but I do have Phil Shoemaker's excellent (July '05) piece in Rifle Sporting Firearms Journal on the .458 Win and Lott...there is a photo of Phil with a very large bison kilt with a .458Lott in that piece. It makes me want to buy one.

Robert,
Buy what? a Bison or a 458 Lott....I need to get that copy of Rifle magazine...my subscription ran out.

A bull Bison is the toughest critter on the face of the earth, they seem to be bullet proof unless a brain or spine shot is taken...I saw one take 5 300 Wbys 200 gr. (or 180s?) Barnes X in the shoulder and go about 3 to 4 miles. Another took two 500s in the chest and went over 2 miles...Another took a 50-120 and went a mile and a half at a walk..and of course some only go a 100 yards or so..Tougher than a Cape Buffalo, but they are larger and I think size has everything to do with how fast most animals die...

Ray: Your response has be on the verge of tears...of course I meant both! But I was not expecting your response ..I am still laughing.

I course I want a .458 Lott!

(It's off-topic..but): I did once shoot a 4 year bull in Osage County, Oklahoma (or there abouts)..I had a deer lease on a ranch that had a bunch of bison on it, so after deer season, I told the owner that I'ld give him $800 and my M700 7mmRM (that had a 3x9 Leupold on it) if I could shoot one of his buffulo..I had loaned him my rifle during deer season and he had killed a deer with it and I knew he wanted it...so, in January he let me come up and shoot the bull of his choice.

I used a Win M70 .338winmag..everyone (a bunch cowboys that thought that bison were nothing but trouble and who questioned the owner why he had damened things there anyway) was afraid that I would wound the animal and it would run off into God knows where...(bison run in one direction..straight ahead!)...fences and highways don't matter...I'm still laughing. I shot under the right horn and it dropped like a box of rocks. It's skull is hanging on the wall next to me right now. They are absolutely beautiful animals. And they are big.

I would like to shoot another bison though!

Ray:
Does Phil live in the Becherof National Wildlife Refuge the year round?

TJ: I can't speak for Ray or Phil, but I think Phil Shoemaker has a place out near Wasilla when he is not out on his place on the AP.

Ray it's not Slow Heavy bullets that kill best but very fast bulletsb IMHO. No 5 300 Wbys 200 gr. (or 180s?) Barnes X needed here.

The question of the .257 Hot Tamale’s (257 STW) effectiveness on large game like mule deer, Canadian whitetails and elk had been answered. My thoughts turned to the possibility of what it would do on game the size of a buffalo.

The next day, after looking over several of Gerald’s 2,000-pound bulls, we spotted a huge bull with a blond mane and dark-brown face and neck. This was the specimen I wanted. Waiting for a broadside shot, I placed the crosshairs behind the shoulder and touched off the shot.

quote:

For the rest of the story.

http://www.gunhuntermag.com/Features/050124Hot.htm

I put six shots in the chest of one with a .44 magnum pistol and he never took a step. He just stood there a while, pissed for about 30 seconds and fell over.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:

A bull Bison is the toughest critter on the face of the earth, they seem to be bullet proof....

Well, they aren't arrow proof!

They are indeed a great animal to hunt, something everyone should do at least once.

I have only shot one bison, but with a shoulder shot it flopped over and died so quick that I did not have a chance to get in a second shot with my double. The whole thing was anticlimactic.

I never have shot a bison, so this post is purely academic. However, from what I have read and studied, the American bison have a similar, though greatly exaggerated, skeletal structure to wildebeast and gemsbok in that they have very long vertebral processes (I think that is what they are called) and that greater than one third of their "chest depth" is just bone and muscle. High shoulder shots will miss the vitals.

Favorite method of early Native Americans was to just run them off a cliff. Later, the development of the bow and arrow and the introduction and use of the horse allowed the Natives to ride up along the bison and shoot downward into the chest cavity.

Now that was probably an exciting hunt, ride essentially bare-back along side of a thundering herd of scared, 2,000 lb. beasts and get close enough to shoot them with a bow or thrust them with a spear. With rock-tipped points no less. I don't think I'd want to try and kill a milk cow like that.

Aren't a lot of bison shot in feedlots nowadays?

Nitro,

There are eight places that I know where Bison can be hunted properly with "properly" being defined as unfenced and therefore B&C eligible.

1) The House Rock area of northern Arizona (just on the outskirts of the Grand Canyon). If you don't have horses and a lot of friends, this could be a rough hunt. People go home empty handed every year. If the Bison are inside the GC national park during the season, you are just plain out of luck as there is no hunting in the park. Be prepared to frame your license as a trophy just in case.

2) The Henry Mountains of Southern Utah. Again, bring friends and at least a few four wheelers. My taxidermist shot a cow here a number of years ago and, like the above, it is some rough country down there. Again, some people go home empty every year.

3) Alaska's Delta Junction herd. I have not checked the draw odds but I would assume that they are not great but would also guess them to be better than Utah's or Arizona's offerings.

4) Custer State Park in South Dakota. Much easier hunt than the first three options and easy enough that the hunt is really on the border of making my list or not. The park staff takes care of you and will handle all the hard work if you wish. The main difficulty on this hunt that makes it fair chase is going to be finding the bull that you want. There are lots of Bison to be seen every day but not many truly amazing bulls. I saw one really old and battered sho nuff B&C shooter in five days when I was there.

5) The Yukon Territory northwest of Whitehorse. Get the snowmobiles fired up and the arctic gear ready for this January hunt. It's a tough one but with a great outfitter. If you live in the US, you need to remember that Wood Bison are currently not importable under the ESA. However, this hunt will undoubtedly jump in price once they are importable so now is the time if you want this species.

6) The MacKenzie Bison Refuge in The Northwest Territories. I have never taken this hunt but the outfitter is very professional and he's "been there and done that" with Bison more than a few times. Again, remember that this hunt is for Wood Bison which are currently not importable to the U.S. If they hunted this area in January rather than December I would be on this hunt this coming year.

7) Northern British Columbia northwest of Fort St. John. I have never taken this hunt or seen the area but reports seem generally positive. The real plus on this hunt is that the outfitters hunt truly wild Plains Bison (importable to the U.S.) without you needing to go through the draw process as in the lower 48.

8) Alberta Canada outside Wood Buffalo National Park. These hunts would be for animals that are brucellosis infected and roaming out of WBNP. The provincial government has set up a Bison free zone outside the park in order to allow hunting pressure to prevent the spread of brucellosis to other Canadian herds. This is an "on your own" or "hire a local" sort of deal and I suspect once you tallied up the costs of putting it together, coupled with the lower odds of success, you would do better to hunt in BC, NWT, or the Yukon. On the plus side, these are Wood/Plains crossbreed Bison and are therefore importable to the U.S. Further, there is no draw. If an animal is in the Bison free zone, it's fair game.

The first three options require that you draw a tag which is generally going to be VERY difficult. One can purchase annual auction tags for the Utah and Arizona hunts that usually go for about what options five, six and seven sell for. However, auction tags do NOT include an outfitter. The fourth option also requires that one draw a tag but your odds are better due to the presence of higher fees. The last four options do not require you to draw a tag but the hunt fees are either much higher or the odds of success (as in option eight) are much lower.

If you are looking at Bison, there are also always rumblings about a hunt taking place on this Indian Reservation or that and being touted as "fair chase". Upon further checking they're usually not. The only one I know that MAY fit this description is the hunt that take place on the Crow reservation. I have, however, heard mixed reviews of the hunt and seen WIDE swings in the prices. One booking agent said he could get me on there for $4K. However, when I called "the res" and spoke with their wildlife director, he told me that they don't use external agents and that trophy bulls were $10K. hmmmmmmmmm. I passed. At any rate, if you want a fair chase Bison, the above list is a darn good place to start looking. There may be other opportunities out there of which I am unaware so I wouldn't look at the above as in any way comprehensive.

Best,

JohnTheGreek

JTG

I know there are good places to hunt a sporting bison. Thanks for the information. I would like to hunt one oneday.

I was just of the (un)-educated opinion from the net most seem to be shot more for meat and often not in very wild conditions - these $400 hunts etc etc.

But enough of that, what wild bovines would be sporting game in North America? Wild or feral cattle? Anything else - musk ox? Are bison "bovines" I suppose as well?

(I know this is off-topic and nothing to do with African hunting)

Yup, $400 buys a damn cheap way to fill the freezer and get a nice robe for the bed but it ain't as fun as freezing your ass off during a for real hunt.

There are I believe, and Ray could elaborate on this, feral cattle in South Texas. Musk ox are technically Bovidae but also of the Caprinae subfamily and Ovibos genus. That subfamily lumps Musk ox in with Barbary Sheep, Takin, Ibex, and Tahr. Simultaneously, the Ovibos genus name obviously alludes to sheeplike characteristics. Looks like God took it upon himself once again to confuse the hell out of scientists. I remember Robin Williams used to do a bit about God being stoned out of his mind when creating the platypus. Same goes for Musk ox I guess.

Best,

JohnTheGreek

John,
At one time, a Mexican General named Guspar Pena had very large holdings on the Mexican side of the Texas Big Bend area, and some of his fighting bulls crossed onto Texas lands adjacent to the river...some of the ranchers sold these bulls to hunters, my folks roped them and pulled them into the trailer and when they had a load, shipped them to San Angelo to the sale barn....Were they a fair chase wild animal, not really IMO, but they were mean, no doubt about that...I shot a half breed one time and he promptly tore the door and fender off my pickup while Ben Love emptied a 30 carbine in his head and bullets richocheted off into the Del Carmen mountains...I finally killed him with my .270, sporting not really, excititing? we thought so~! '

Those are the only bovines that I can remember being hunted in Texas and that only lasted for a year or two as I recall...Most of them were shot by hoof and mouth control people..

There may be a few water Buffalo in Texas under fence...But it is against Texas Law to have dangerous game on your ranch....

I might add that there are some ranchers in Texas that if you asked them if they had wild cattle to hunt, they would surly tell you yes and sell them to you...Any time except during branding season...

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
they would surly tell you yes and sell them to you...

Sounds like texas ranchers for sure!

Best,

JohnTheGreek

I shot a huge bull bison ten years ago with my .54 caliber black powder rifle on the Deseret Land and Livestock Company Ranch (24 miles long and 15 miles wide) in northeastern Utah on a very cold day in February. It was anything but a canned hunt or stockyard shoot. The shot was to the neck and it still took the bison quite some time to go down and the remaining bulls to leave. Was a great hunt. But the best was the meat! Have a nice buffalo robe and head mount from it, along with a 36" penis cane.

Canned hunts are only canned if that is the kind of hunt you book, so whats that got to do with Bison? Because some shoot them in a small pasture has nothing to do with "hunting" Bison or anything else..Every time someone mentions Bison, Lions or some other stuff, this canned hunt stuff comes up...Hey guys thats optional, you don't have to do it...

Fenced hunting? well thats another thing and up to the individual..I don't mind a fenced hunt, the whole world is fenced one way or the other, boundries...I just want it large enough that I don't have to stop walking and turn around during the course of a day..I suppose thats about 10,000 acres..that about the size of the area I hunt elk on in the river of no return in Idahos wilderness, I don't think I can cover more terrain than that on any hunt...So the choice is yours to make.

Here's a better idea. Ship all Taxachusettesites off to Ontario; remove all fenses in that disgusting state (including Fenway); and plant buffalo. FOUR positive steps for America.

Here now, I like Ontario! Ship 'em to Quebec!

quote:

Originally posted by Thumpper470:
Here's a better idea. Ship all Taxachusettesites off to Ontario; remove all fenses in that disgusting state (including Fenway); and plant buffalo. FOUR positive steps for America.

HEY Thumpper,

Where the hell did that come from? And what the hell does it have to do with buffalo hunting?

Did you once get your little feel feels hurt by a big mean ole Texan??....

Uh, Surestrike, I don't think he was referring to Baja Oklahoma. I think he meant that place where the Kennedy's come from.

UHHH..

Yeah I got it now...Duhhh.

My apologies to Thumpper..

And I'm in full agreement with his statement!!

Only leave them frickin left wing elitist, marxist a-holes there. Got to have something for the kids to shoot.