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delloro - Thank you for making this clear. Some here don't realize that they "don't know EVERYTHING" but try to project that they do anyway.  . Larry Sellers SCI(International)Life Member
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"Freedom of speech is protected by the 1st Amendment of the United States More to the point here, the forum owner has made it quite clear on many occasions that members do have the right of free speech so to say: "My thought, if you can't contribute in a positive way, put a sock in your mouth and stay the hell away!! Hope that's plain enough???" is (to me at least) simply ridiculous. Again, putting that aside for a moment and trying to get back on the subject: I can't help but feel that a simple frontal assault on the ban has no hope of succeeding on it's own. Whilst I doubt anything will reverse the ban, to me the pressure group(s) need to be looking for a way to apply pressure to the Zim & Tz Govts to actually do something about what F&WS are unhappy about........ and as I've said, there is a grain of truth in the F&WS complaints. Does anyone know if SCI or anyone else for that matter has even approached those Govts? | |||
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I think we all barking up the wrong tree. Both the Zimbabwe and Tanzania governments are well aware of the uncontrolled poaching in their countries - without a doubt, supported by people higher up in authority. And they have done absolutely nothing to stem it. | |||
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That's my point exactly.  | |||
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A 'grain of truth' is all Obama needs. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Obama is an utter prick but I don't think the blame can be laid at his door or at least not completely. USF&WS have been a bunch of anti hunting bastards for as long as I can remember and their track record of that goes back at least to the Moz ban that was introduced in the late 80s or early 90s and probably goes back considerably further. This ban is just the latest of many examples of that. However, be that as it may, if the Zim & Tz Govts/Game Depts had been doing their jobs then this ban wouldn't have happened and I reckon it's there where pressure needs to be applied and change needs to happen and I'm sure that USF&WS would argue that's exactly what they're doing by introducing the ban. | |||
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To chime in and second Saeed and Shakari, we can sing as dance as much as we like but African Governments hold far more sway. Though this should not stop all efforts. At the end of the day it all seems to revolve around Politics whether USA or Africa! If there was a way to the bring to our African Governments to see wildlife as a real resource/asset that has a tangible value then have them make the decision and genuinely commit to conserve it. Sadly wildlife is not regarded as such and receives passing interest at best. Sadder still is the shear ignorance in the civil service and Public as to the importance of wildlife as a resource. It's seen as an "aesthetic" commodity and not as "livestock" therefore its of no value and is not protected. In Zambia for instance, even rural people (the few that get it) don't understand how wildlife is so costly yet when someone is caught poaching they receive a minimal fine/slap on the wrist, the fine paid in the Capital and not to the affected community or area. Whereas livestock theft attracts a hefty sentence of five years... even thou livestock fetches a fraction of the price.. It seems like a momentous task as Politicians have to first see the light and from there things will filter down without which the trend will be very hard to stem. OR if rural communities had the political clout they could force their politicians to change.. Welcome to Political conservation  | |||
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Yea, Mike has it right. Panic leads to inaction and not a deliberate course of action. What SCI is doing now may or may not work, but at least they are doing something, and it is a pretty aggressive course of action. I think you can rest assured they are looking for help from outside lobbiest too (since theirs really did get blindsided, as I am sure was the intention of the f--ktard's administration.) I especially agree with Mike's citation of Shaw's comment. JPK  Free 500grains | |||
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I am, among other things, a card carrying member of the District of Columbia Bar (the Washington, DC lawyer's licensing body and professional association,) and I can tell you that your Wikipedia citation is far from accurate or complete. Delloro, in one sentence, gave a more complete and accurate description of what the 1st Amendment entails. The most significant take away for you is that the 1st Amendment has essentially nothing to do with communication between private citizens, including verbal and written communication, whether in a private forum or in public. {EDIT: I meant to add, but was interrupted by a phone call, that the 1st Amendment is to the US Constitution, only, and applies to the US or US states' regarding US Citizens worldwide or non citizens within the US, only.] Regarding the rest of your post, perhaps SCI's frontal attack will not work, perhaps it will, perhaps in total or perhaps piecemeal, but at least it is a beginning. The war must be engaged on a variety of fronts, not just one. Other fronts might include, for example, assisting Zimbabwe in an aerial count this coming late winter, lobbying Congress and other actions. Throwing your arms up, ranting and raving, repeatedly predicting doom, do nothing at all. Follow George Bernard Shaw's advice. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Guys all I know is we as hunters shooters what ever you want to call us should unite, the antis and greenies are!! and they hate our way of live. I did A 100% legal Rhino hunt with A US client last year and I get daily death threads and phone calls and text messages from all across the world accusing me of being everything from A poacher to being molested as A child and everything in between, it is horrible. My wife gets these calls as well they even threaten my children! It is so bad I at one stage had to shut down my website I am in the process of changing my business email that I had for 12 years! Bottom line the are united against us we need to stop all this fighting between us!! and put our energy towards the greenies, trust me were are loosing the battle and the war!!, just my 2 cents worth I need to get back to my fan club on the internet and delete a couple more insane emails. Phillip du Plessis www.intrepidsafaris.com info@intrepidsafaris.co.za +27 83 633 5197 US cell 817 793 5168 | |||
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I'm not aware of anyone having done that.... but my point is that I can't see a simple frontal assault achieving anything at all. As I see it, even if the courts order USF&WS to reverse the ban they'll ignore the court order just as they've ignored a number of court orders won by John Jackson/Conservation Force on the Mozambican elephant product ban. I sincerely hope I'm wrong but I'll bet I'm not. | |||
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What is really needed is an action towards the TZ & Zim governments to stop the things that USF&W are worried about. While I do want to rein USF&W back in a bit...they do have some cause for concern in this instance...esp in TZ. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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No, what is needed is every conceivable legal action that may assist us in our goal. That would include lobbying the TZ and Zim, govt's, helping Zim with a count or funding for a count, and lobbying, fund raising for candidates supportive of our cause and litigation. ALL of them, not one single effort. A broad front, NRA style. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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I'll agree with that but I'd (at least) suspect some of those in Govt are almost certainly the same guys who are involved in the poaching & therefore will be unwilling to take decisive action. Even if that isn't the case, then I doubt the relevant personnel of those countries are willing or able to conduct the policing operations....... The last time Tz tried it was a couple of years ago & I'm told it was such a fiasco the operation was halted. | |||
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You can always count on those suspect individuals, they are predictable, they will feather their beds. Where there is a will, and a wallet, there is a way. Or, in other words, money talks and bullshit walks. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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+1 First off to all the ar members and sci members i fully support you, am glad you are fighting the political fight and wish you (and us) best of luck in your efforts. We need to get science and economic benefits of hunting behind us. Our opponents are not a bunch off wacko hippies, they have a long view, real dollars and a strategy. Last week i was having lunch and drinks with a friend at a bar in arlington. I showed him my lion hunting pictures on my phone and we were discussing hunting africa. A few other people at bar counter who were eating lunch joined in. I got intellectually lynched. These were not a bunch of idiots. They all had their phones out searching the internet for facts/data points. I had very few to rebut them with. These people were not some agenda political hacks but rational policy analysts - most working at pentagon. Hopefully sci and dsc (of which i am a member) spends a few dollars getting some facts data on african hunting put together or else we lose this fight. Just my worthless 2 cents. Mike | |||
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I hope you're right but it ain't ain't gonna be easy or fast....... That Moz ban has been in place for something like 30 years and still no real sign of it being reversed! | |||
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There were good and usually safer alternatives for those 30yrs. As a result, there was not a lot of effort and "no" money spent on the issue. Now, with all but no alternative, effort and money will, hopefully, be forthcoming. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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john Jackson has fought them tooth and nail for years and still hasn't got anywhere........ I just hope this case will be different but as I said, I have my doubts. | |||
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Without the resources, read CASH, no one could make a difference. Especially without some help from within the country, which, as mentioned earlier, can be made available, also through cash. The question is, "Will US (and other) hunters put up the cash?" If the answer is yes than the ban will be overturned, if the answer is no then it will not. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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I have no idea what kind of finances JJ & CF have had to fight the Moz ban & can only assume he had a decent budget to spend on it if only because he's fought the good fight for umpteen years but despite that & despite winning many court orders on the case, the ban is still in place & F&WS have repeatedly refused to comply....... but I suspect no matter how much money & effort is thrown at this new ban, it won't be reversed quickly & I further suspect not for years at least....... & unless the Zim & Tz Govts do something, I don't think it'll ever be reversed. Hope I'm wrong though. | |||
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I have just skimmed the latest posts in this string and someone finally pointed out the main fact that the problem arose in Africa and as usual no one there has done diddly shit about it. By the way what has CIC done about the problem? Talk about an aloof and elite group they are one good example. | |||
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While I am not in disagreement at all...I'll just say this: If the Zim & TZ governments had done a better job of police action and management to begin with...there would not be a problem now. I am all for fighting on all fronts...but in the end...I would like to know that we actually fixed the real problem which is uncontrolled poaching at a large scale commercial level in TZ. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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No doubt. You eat an elephant one bite at a time. I'll settle for the first bite being reversing the ban. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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No, they have squat for resources. Think NRA ballpark resources. ~5,000,000 members @ $35/ea/yr = $175,000,000/yr. Most of that goes to it's primary mission, which is Second Amendment litigation, lobbying and legislation and enforcement through litigation (different from litigation seeking to define and expand some states' definition of their Second Amendment restraints - recall all states have constitutions, but the state constitutions can be no more restrictive than the US Constitution, which has been the primary battleground for the NRA of late.) . The NRA has made great progress in and has almost won the Second Amendment battle. One key aspect of the NRA's success is that they made it clear to many gun owners that even if they dodn't like hand guns or AR 15's that they needed to support the NRA's efforts to fight control/confiscation, etc regarding those weapons or their favorites weren't going to be far behind. Somebody, the SCI or some other bonifide organization needs to get a similar message out to the world's hunters. Maybe elephants or lion are not on their agendas, but if they don't draw a line in the sand their favorites won't be far behind. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Because unlike SCI, the NRA has never lost its direction! SCI has gone off on a tangent many years ago. SCI's top aim has been to glorify each other. Anything of benefit to us hunters takes a back seat that. I can just imagine all the good an organizations such as SCI could do if they set their minds to it. Sadly, I am not going to holt my breath! | |||
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Absolutely! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Having tried to work with SCI on the lion uplist...there is a lot of truth in what Saeed says. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Not true. The effective NRA we know today was in disarray not so long ago, and there was a coup of sorts resulting in significant change, and a refocus on aggressive Second Amendment action. The results you see are the intense litigation campaign and the intense lobbying, which have lead to the relatively new recognition of an individual's right to own and bear arms as settled Constitutional law and to even f--ktards like Obama being cautious when it comes to new anti gun legislation or executive action. Maybe this USF&W issue will embolden SCI, refocusing it? Maybe SCI needs a coup? Who knows? But for right now they are the ONLY game in town. The enemy of my enemy is my friend JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Thanks thought it may be more. Maybe for DG hunts?
White Mountains Arizona | |||
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Maybe - US sure is the single largest market but when you take into account all those other countries that go on safari - it adds up to a LOT. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Holy Shit, has anyone ever listened to the many tirades against the NRA and how it has lost it way and it is just a shill for the gun industry. Don't see much difference between the NRA and SCI. They are both doing a good job for us. Of course I am talking about American hunters and gun owners because I just don't give a BIG rats ass about the rest of the worlds hunters and gun owners - how about that! | |||
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Really?? A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Ohhhh - my uptake is slow some days... A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Please see: SCI Foundation | |||
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I usually stay out of the SCI cheer leading or bashing. I have emotions both ways. however, the boxing match has begun and I am going to root for the one that best represents me and let the rest of the political BS fall off for the time being. SCI is on the front line and fighting for us, hopefully they stay there. Certainly SCI is our best chance for success at this time If someone has a better 'immediate' option please feel free to share In the meanwhile "GO SCI" | |||
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Did I miss something? Guess I have a computer cookie problem? I was looking for the "GO SCI" thread and somehow ended up here? "I knew I shoulda taken that left turn at Albuquerque."-BB Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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