Taking the .458 dia bullet in 400-500 grain weights. At what velocity would this bullet be considered a dangerous game bullet( buffalo rhino etc.)

I think since the beginning of time the bullets which weigh 480- 510 grains at a velocity from 2100 and up will make it work. The standard by which all are judged is the 470 nitro express which used a 500 grain bullet at 2150fps.

With todays better bullets and powders most premium bullets and solids from 450 and up and 2150 fps or higher, but not more then 2300 as bullet failure is a real posibility above 2300fps.

The monolithic bullets today are longer then the older lead core bullets which give them a better sectional density at lower weights. I spoke with Barnes about the range of impact velocity for the 458 diameter bullets. They told me 2200fps impact velocity ( not muzzle velocity)should not be exceeded with the 458 diameter bullets. Considering these guns are short range I would think it best to keep the muzzle velocity well under 2300fps to manage the Barnes suggested impact velocity.

A 450 grain monolithic bullet or a 480-500 grain conventional lead bullet at 2150fps impact velocity is a huge focre to be rekoned with! I shot a Gemsbok running straight away from me right in the Hind end at about 80 yards. Nearly a bullseye in the tail. The bullet crushed the pelvis and exited the neck with a 1.5-2" exit hole. This was with a 450X bullet at approx 2300fps Muzzle velocity from my 458 Lott. That is over 4 foot of penetration through an animal with very tough hide. Looking at the exit it is clear the bullet expaned completely. No it was not a "dangerous" game animal but it was a first hand report on something I did in the last month, not hearsay or theory. I have also seen this same bullet blow through buffalo on several occasions from a 458 Win mag on broadside shots. jj

Tanoose,

A 400 gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw (TBBC)at 2,670 fps has the same penetration, expansion and weight retention as a 510 gr, WW rn soft point at 2,300 fps.

Bullet construction is as important, or more important, than bullet mass.

Andy

[ 06-22-2002, 10:20: Message edited by: Andy ]

JJhack: sectional density is a function of weight not length. A 450 grain bullet in a .458 made out of tungsten and very short would have the same sectional density as a pure copper bullet of the same weight which would be very long. The penetration advantage of a homogeneous bullet is that they make bullet failure less likely than a lead/jacketed bullet.

It makes little difference to me what causes a bullet to pennetrate well, as long as it does! I find the Mono-metel bullets,this includes the X, and Super Solids, from Barnes, in the .458 diameter from 400gr to 500 gr pennetrate very well on Buffalo, in fact sometimes too well! The velocity needs to be held below 2300 fps, IMO! The .458 400 gr Super solids @ 2150 @ muzzle, will shoot right through a Cape Buffalo at 100 yds, almost every time. This same bullet, I find, will shoot up the old spout on a fleeing Buff, and end up in the chest cavity. In this case, we are talking about a bullet that carries only a SD of .272, and a .321 BC. I find that complete penetration, or full body length pennetration, regardless of the numbers everybody takes so much stock in, is what I want! The one effect that I see that is a benefit of the heavier bullet is the retained velocity inside the body, causeing the FPE to last longer inside the Buffalo. What it developes after it leaves the buff, is wasted on the wind!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying numbers do not matter, it is just that they do not matter to Me, or the Buffalo! We don't read while shooting, or fighting! If it works, it works, and I don't care why!

North of 60, How foolish of me I was thinking Ballistic coefficient when I wrote that not sectional density! Thanks for pointing that error out, would have been confusing somewhere down the line. The Bullets which are longer for their weight do penetrate better and tend to travel straighter through meat. It's one of the reasons the debate of SD was so strong when the X bullets first came out. The proponenets of the X bullet made fantastic claims over the penetration and those who stood by the claim of the lower SD for the lighter weight bullet saying it was not possible were always in a big debate over this. Anyone who has used a 6.5mm rifle knows how long those bullets are and how it kills game well beyond the printed ballistic tables.

It does not take to much experience with actual big game shooting to see the lighter bullets with the longer length were flat shooting and magnificent penetrators. There were other problems like the much higher pressure they generate and the many guns they do not shoot well in. Those things often side tracked the original debate over pure penetration and tissue damage. If folks just stuck with one issue at a time they could have sorted out the monolithic bullets much easier for the average guy.

I have seen first hand and in person just how well those X bullets penetrate( and expand to a lesser degree) I promise you two bullets of identical weight, one made by conventional means and one being an X bullet. The X bullet will out penetrate nearly every time unless something goes wrong with the bullet?

It's as much a function of the smaller diameter mushroom, the huge weight retention and the additional length to penetrate straight much of the time. Having said this I have also witnessed horrible X bullet failure bending over and not opening along with exits in very strange places proving the bullet did not penetrate straight. That comes from the few X bullets which bend over upon impact rather then having the petals open.

I have only seen this with bullets in the 30 caliber and under class when driven to very high velocity. A paradox for sure! Those were the guns the X was suppose to help the most. Should there be any doubt, the Sectional density of a bullet is the weight of the bullet in pounds divided by the bullet circumfrence in Square inches. It's why bullets of the same diameter always have a better SD when heavier.

The classic number for a good bullet for deep penetration and hunting performance is .300 or over and the more over that you go the better. Coincidentaly the bullet is also getting much longer when weight increases!jj

Sectional density equals the bullet weight in grains divided by the square of the bullet diameter in inches (or caliber), then divided by 7000 to convert bullet weight to pounds.

It would seem to be pounds per square inch, but actually is a unitless number, because bullets are not square.

Nonetheless it is proportional in a linear fashion to what you would get if you divided the bullet weight by the cross sectional area of the bullet, which would yield real units.

Sectional density is a handy convention, proportional to but not equal to a real measure, hence unitless.

When I was whining about the lack of 300 grain GSC FN bullets, I was chided because the experts said that shorter bullets are less prone to bend, have less lateral wall friction, are more easily stabilized by the prevailing 1 in 12" twist of 375 caliber rifles, etc. I was told that the 270 grain FN was really the optimum weight in the 375 H&H, that the 300 grain FN would offer no advantage, etc.

Essentially the opinion was that a longer bullet of a given sectional density/weight, and same caliber and construction would be the inferior straight line penetrator, and would penetrate less deeply if it stayed on a straight course.

Hence, a Speer AGS, or Woodleigh FMJ, or Trophy Bonded Sledge Hammer is really the way to go if a 300 grain .375 caliber solid "super penetrator" is desired.

Anyway, just being long is not a plus for bullet penetration, soft or solid, it would seem. The experts have told us here before.

Then there are concepts like bullet nose shape, expanded diameter (a dynamic sectional density value to use calculus on along the bullet's path? ), velocity at impact, other bullet integrity factors, etc. ... (yawn) ...ZZZ...

Well hell's bells! If it works use it.

A survey on this forum would be as good as any numbers game.

I found the standard and monolithic 400 gr. bullets lacking in penitration on Buffalo except for broadside shots and even then on ocassions the didn't quite make the grade..I wouldn't use them...I would use the 450 gr. Monolithics as they are comprable to the 500 gr. standard bullets...I would want 2150 to 2200 FPS in any 458 cal. rifle...

I chronographed some Winchester factory loads of 510 grain RNSP 458 Win.Mag., in a 25" barrel (CZ 550 Safari Magnum) yesterday.
Average for 5 shots:

Velocity = 2014 fps, at 85 degrees F.
Extreme spread = 29 fps
Standard deviation = 12 fps

Conclusion: Accurate but slow.

My idea of the proper 458 load mirrors JJH's opinion: the 458 Lott with 450 to 500 grain bullet at 2150 to 2250 fps, whichever shoots best in your gun. Low pressure is a good thing in a DGR, thus I have to say the Lott beats the
Win.Mag., obviously.