Ok - following on the 45/70 thread we were finally getting interesting. Which are tougher - African or N. American game - we could split it into "plains game" and DG if you want.

It might be helpful if you defined what you mean by "tougher".

456H&H

Ok - following the last thread - it is my opinion - based on experience - that African game - pound for pound - is tougher than their north american counterparts. for example, while a bison may weigh in at 1500 lb, it is, in my opinion, not a patch on a cape buffalo of similar or less weight. The same would hold for an wildebeest or gemsbok versus say an elk. I would suggest that an eland is tougher than a moose. Proof of this? Look at the calibres of choice and bullet choice for African game vs. N. American game. Look at the danger involved - (while I am sure the odd hunter has been attacked by an amorous whitetail - when a bushbuck comes after you its often deadly and serious). This is not even to note that bears seem to be "softer" and slower than say lions and their is nothing in the americas that can match buff, hippo or elephant. Look at the all around a calibre for Africa - 375H&H. this would, it seems to me, be gross overkill for an "all round" calibre in N. America for everything short of Polar Bear and maybe even for that. Am I right? and if so - why is this?

I think your "all around " caliber 375H&H is more steeped in history than others such as the 338WM, 8MM mag,350 mag, etc for PG that's all. I've killed elk and kudu/gemsbok all 3 are tough but IMHO the elk wins hands down. Those SOBs will stay on their feet till the very end.
when we speak of DG NA's grizzly and coastal Brown bears aren't the pushovers you imagine. and don't forget to a polar bear you are dinner...he'll hunt YOU for lunch. Just like a cape buff when wounded they will indeed come for you but are more apt to circle you in dense bush then lie in wait for you. It isn't that a buff or a BB is really that hard to kill. It is more that either will not hesitate to challenge you if you piss him off. and neither will call of their charge once they commit to it.
The deal with an elephant is make a bad shot and as he runs off break a hind leg bone and he is done (I am told)

I think my point about the 375 is that it is the minimum DG calibre broadly accepted in Africa as we have DG here.

Concerning elephant - I think you are wrong about this in a big way - the reason we have the big bores 400's plus are elephants and buff. I don't believe they were invented for N. american and European game - they just were not neccessary.

Just look at the bone you have to penetrate to get the brains of any of these animals - centimetres in some cases. The brain of a bear is protected by a very thin layer of bone.

but yet that very same bone on the elephant was not only penetrated but completely passed thru by what some here call the inadaquate 45-70

I cant quite figure how you can call a kudu or hartebeast " tough" ?. they are not very thick through from side to side. I would use anything from a 6.5x55 on up for them and never give it a second thought. One farm I hunt in na. the farmers 12 yr old grandson used a Cz 223. he shot alot of kudu and heartebeast with that rifle with lung shots, and even a couple cow eland. He's now 17 and a hell of a hunter I might add.

Clem you should've also mentioned temps up to +110 F with 99% humidity...I'd like to see the cape live and prosper in that temp range.
But aren't we talking bone/muscle structures here?

I think some people confuse tougher with meaner. I would think the Cape has earned his rep as one mean son of a **. Tough I will agree that the elk can be one tough animal, a bull in the middle of the rut just can forget you killed him. I dont know how many times we have skined them out and found rounds healed up on the front shoulder blade. Tougher pound for pound I dont know havent hunted Africa yet. It needs to be on a relative weight scale though.
Really how tough are they, I hunt almost everything with a bow.

For what its worth I think that African Game has a greater tenacity for life than our NA game primarily because nothing in that continent dies of old age. Everything is being hunted constantly. Even an old male lion is at risk from Hyenas and he was the king of his domain for many years. For these reasons I think these animals just have the mental toughness to survive and get away even though their (plains game) skin, tissue, etc. is no tougher than our game. As to DG it speaks for itself and their is not a resonable comparison to our DG. The bison is drasically diff. than the cape buffalo, the cougar no comparison to the leopard, etc. etc. The meanest SOB's on our continent are the big bears hands down. I would think of them as similar toughness to the lion. At the end of the day I think it is just the primitive desire to not be eaten that makes the animals in africa in general harder to kill but a bullet in the right place will normally do the job.

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I don't know enough about physiology to give a definitive answer but here's my two cents worth.

Ever notice when you shoot a deer there is often a huge amount of blood on the ground, often covering an area larger than the animal? Ever notice a huge blood patch under an African animal? I sure have not. Granted, I don't have as much experience as some of you out there but I noticed this from the very first animal I shot. I have never seen an African animal that bled like a whitetail or mulie.

Some say there is less moisture or fluid in African animals bodies but I'm not sure I buy this. My guess is heavier muscle mass and/or bone structure.

The other factor is, with the possible exception of Texas, Africa is a much harsher and more unforgiving environment and as such, the animals are simply tougher.

I don't know if there will ever be an "answer" to this question, probably just opinions.

A case could be made that the continuing presence of predators like lions, leopards, hyenas, wild dogs, cheetahs, and jackals required the prey species to develop a stronger vitality as a whole than species on other continents.

They adrenalize very quickly, and the adrenalin rush seems to last quite a while.

A well-placed shot on any animal that is relaxed will usually result in its expiring quickly, but they can run quite a ways with their lungs in tatters regardless of the continent they're on.

George

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Berger ----- From my experience there is no doubt which animals are tougher. My terminology meaning the ability to take a shot from a large caliber fast moving bullet in a vital location before expiring. While my experience in Africa is only one Safari, my experience in North America is extensive. I have taken Brown Bear and seen several taken, scores of Deer, as well as many Caribou, Elk and one huge Alaska Yukon Moose. ----- Direct comparison follows. Alaskan Yukon Moose shot in the neck where it adjoins the shoulder with a .340 Wby using a 250 grain Nosler Partition Gold at 2900 fps. Animal dropped in his tracks. Bullet penetrated into the backbone, but did not exit. Hartebeeste or Kongoni shot in the shoulder at an angle that the bullet penetrated the shoulder and neck bone, lodging in the skin on the off side. The rifle was a .358 STA with a 270 grain North Fork soft point bullet going 2850 fps. The Moose was four times the size of the Kongoni but the hide of the Kongoni was twice as thick (I have both hides, Moose mounted, Kongoni hide tanned with hair on it). My son also took two Elk, a Bull and a Cow 125 yards beyond with one North Fork Bullet near the same speed with one bullet. Conclusion on this comparison was the ability of the Kongoni to take that size bullet with that much momentum, without the bullet passing through the animal. ----- I also took a Zebra Stallion with the .358 STA using the same bullet. I hit the Stallion three times with complete pass through penetration each time, on in the neck, one in the shoulder, then one in the shoulder an on through the hip. It went down with each shot but bounced back up and ran each time, dieing only when it ran out of blood. That tenacity for life greatly impressed me. My Cape Buffalo took two 370 grain North Forks from a .416 Rem at 2450 fps, went down each time, got back up then expired. ----- My personal opinion is the African animals have tougher hides, are stuck by thorns, fangs, claws, etc throughout their lives, with the toughest surviving. They also face more life and death ordeals daily the North American animals, thus being physically tougher because of it. Yep, some of the North American face Bears, Wolfes, Cats etc, but only those in Alaska and Canada, the others going relatively unscathed. Well there you have my .02 worth. Good shootig.

This is always an interesting discussion so I'll offer my 2 cents. I think that many who hunt africa for the first time don't understand that many of the plains game they're hunting is 2.5 times the size of a whitetail deer and often 2.5 times the size of mule deer. Let's face it, for the most part NA hunters are deer hunters with a sprinkling of elk here and there. Oh I know that some are ardent elk hunters but for most of us it's difficult to get tags and elk are not as common as deer. Deer are not hard to kill. At 150lbs avg or less there's not much there. On the other hand a Kudu, gemsbuck, etc are at least 2.5 times as large. So even when they're leathaly hit they seem to run off. In the mopane, 100yds seem very far to track. I have found that wildebeest and especially Zebra are considerably harder to keep down than most plains game and certainly tougher than anything with a cloven hoof in NA with the possible occasional exception of very large bull elk. Buffalo IMHO are in a class by themselfs and there's nothing in NA to compare them with. Don't mistake Bison for cape buffalo. Bison can be bigger weight wise but will not wait for you in ambush even sometimes when he should be dead. I have dropped two buffalo virtually in their tracks but even though another I shot was a perfect shot it took 5 more good hits to finally anchor him. Eland are also in a different class. They can take a pounding and while I know that some feel a 300 mag will suffice I would not take this fine animal on with less than a 338 and preferably something bigger. Tougher in africa,somewhat, but definatly on average bigger. I have agreat respect for the great bears, but they're not lions. If you doubt that compare their canines somtime and no bear can cover ground as fast as lion can.

I recall an old outdoors mag...could it have been Outdoor Life?... where a report was done on a lion being put into a cage with a medium size BLACK BEAR with the intention of watching a grand old fight. The result was that when the lion approached the blackie smacked him once with his paw and 1 dead cat resulted.

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Alf,

I doubt 'speed of adrenalization' is the sole factor; you'd have to take into account the amount of the adrenalin 'dump'.

While elephant are not usually considered a 'prey' species, Cape buffalo are. As you probably know, a buff will go from placid bovine to 3/4 ton of killing machine in a heartbeat. We might attribute this to the ever-present danger posed by lions. I wager even the 'farm-raised' Cape buffalo of South Africa would exhibit this danger, as a million years of instinct and 'genetic memory' don't vanish in a generation or two.

Good thing, too, as the atavistic urge to hunt is still strong in humans, too.

George

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interesting question for sure. In my years of hunting (Plus 15) for big game I recall very few animals I ever shot that died where they were standing (NA or African game) A good bullet in the "right" spot will kill most animals. Whats the "right" spot? I guess it would depend on the particular animal the hunter is after. I try for the heart/lungs all the time, if I hit that its "dead" tho I might have to look for it for a bit after the shot. I shot a whitetail doe in Texas this past season with a .444 Marlin with a265 gr slug and figured it would knock that deer off its feet, but the doe still ran some 75-80 yards after I hit it. The bullet was a complete pass thru in the lungs. What I learned from that was anything can happen in spite of what I thought would happen. I have been to Africa once and of the numerous animals I shot there, some were 1 shot kills and a few took several shots to anchor, and those were again all about bullet placement as much as the calibers (a .30-06 w/180 slugs and a .338 Win Mag with 250 gr. slugs) So whose tougher, I still don't know. Just my 2 cents here.

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African animals, no question, are tougher in my 46 years of hunting experience, and that includes hunting in North America during that entire time and taking many of the big boys.

quote:

Posted 03 February 2006 20:38
I recall an old outdoors mag...could it have been Outdoor Life?... where a report was done on a lion being put into a cage with a medium size BLACK BEAR with the intention of watching a grand old fight. The result was that when the lion approached the blackie smacked him once with his paw and 1 dead cat resulted.

Ah Cats,
That was a mountain lion. We're talking real killing machines here...African lions.

No, cats is right. it was a circus lion that got out and swatted the blackbear, also a circus animal. The bear then broke the lions shoulder with a swipe and the lion had to be destroyed. There was one G.bear african lion arena match in california that is well documented and a few in Mexico. The african lion never lasted long enough for the great expense of bringing one over, one swipe and done.
I must be shooting all sick animals in africa or something as they all died perfectly well when I did my part ... the same as NA animals do. I have a pal in Na who's lists would read "over 1,000 kudu, several hundred eland, gemsbok "ect ect. He hunts and buys the meat to re-sell to the prison system. He would laugh at the suggestion of plainsgame being as tough as some of you folks make them out to be.

TSJ: thank you! I was pretty sure I remembered it correctly. Wish I could remember where I read that, all I recall is it was in a hunting mag when hunting mags here in the USA were still worth reading having a format of adventure.

After over 40 years of hunting mostly in NA but that includes a substantial and varied amount in Africa, I have seen no real difference in difficulty in killing an animal if I compare animals of similar body size. I have very , very little trouble in killing any animal (birds excepted). Animals of equal weight have died in similar time periods after the initial shot. Here is an example of what I mean.

My typical experience with buffalo is as follows: The buff is crossing at 50 to 125 yds. (We have followed a herd and then moved around the herd to let it pass us while we check for an appropriate animal). A 300 gr 375 H&H solid or a 480 gr solid from a 465 H&H is placed in the shoulder about 3 inches higher then usually recommended. The buff goes down on it's nose, immediately jumps up, turns 180 deg and runs like hell on it's back track. Another bullet is placed in the same area as it runs across our front, buff goes down on it's nose again jumps up and continues to run. With the 375 one or two more similar shots are agin taken. The buff runs 30 to 60 yds., puts it's head in a bush and goes down. The death bellow soon follows. Total time from first shot to death bellow 30 to 60 seconds. A very large bull bison is collected on the National Bison Range due to it having arthritic leg joints. A broad side heart shot is taken with a 450/400 3" at 60 yds. The rifle doubles and a soft point 400 gr. bullet creases the heart high and behind. This bullet also penetrates both lungs. The scond bullet, a solid strikes the about 5 to 6 ins higher and penetrates both lungs centrally. Both bullets exit. The only reaction of the bison to receiveing two well placed 400 gr bullets delivering over 8,000 ft/lbs of energy, is to drop hes head and stand still. After the shooter unrolls him self off the floor of the pick up bed after the double discharge he trades the double for a 375 H&H loadded with 300 gr Silvertips. The first shot with the 375 hits about 3 inches higher then the 400 gr solid and penetrates both lungs, after 20 or 30 seconds the shooter fires another 300 gr Silvertip that hits within a couple of inches of the first Silvertip. Other then a slight shiver when the 375 bullets hit, the bison shows no other reaction. After that, the shooter having a hard time believing that the bison is still standing there asks me to load only the right barrel of the 450/400 for him. I load the rifle and hand it to him. He raises the rifle and just before he pulls the trigger the bison goes down on his brisket but keeps his head up for several seconds as we walk to him. As we approach he rolls over on his side and we see the death kicks. As best as I can remember that whole episode took at least two minutes but more likely a longer time. Result adequate calibers, good bullets very similar results.


465H&H

There is a 1000 pound difference between a 8-10 year old bull bison and a similarly aged bull cape buffalo.

Both are preditor oriented. Bison in the Yellowstone eco-system and bison in Canada and Alaska are hunted heavily but not entirly successfully by wolves. And a few are killed by both kinds of bears.

Cape buffalo are hunted by hyena and lion. A few calves are probably klled by leopards, crocodile, and maybe a few by wild dog.

Bison are a plains animal, cape buffalo tend to be a scrub animal. Most hunters will take a buffalo within a 100 yards. It's quite posssible to take a bison on the plains as far away as you can shoot the vital organs.

I was a backup with the 375 on Dad's bison cow a few years ago. He brained her and then they all kind of milled away. Some yelling and they were gone.

Any kind of wild or domestic cattle would have been an easy kill like that was unders similar situations.

Some North American animals are very tough. Elk, pronghorn antelope, and of course are bears and moose have been known to take lots of good shots and keep going. Then again hit them right and they usually fall.

Kudu are soft, springbok are super soft, but things like Gemsbok, Hartebeast, and Zebras are as tough as things get. But like similarly tough NA or Eur-Asian animals hit them right and they will fall.

I don't really think we have tougher or less tough animals than Africa. From what I have seen this is 99% bullshit!

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Gentlemen,

From my own experience, ANY animal hit well with the first shot, does not go far, and appeares easy to kill.

Hit him with a marginal shot, and you have a daylong tracking job, which will make you think they are made of stainless steel, not blood and flesh.

Craig Boddington, as you guys know is a veteran of over fifty safaris and arguably has killed more varieties of animals than probably anyone alive today. He sees no difference in the "toughness" of comparable african vs American game. I don't have enogh animals in my "data base" to give a definitive opinion. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Gentlemen,

From my own experience, ANY animal hit well with the first shot, does not go far, and appeares easy to kill.

Hit him with a marginal shot, and you have a daylong tracking job, which will make you think they are made of stainless steel, not blood and flesh.

That's how I see it. I might add that using enough gun and breaking bone, whenever possible, will tend to abbreviate the process.

ALF,

Your data says Wood Bison average at 13 years. Is this cows and bulls as the weights are kind of low.

I have seen many Bull bison on the livestock scales at the sale barn and most of them have been around 1800-2200 pounds at 8 years, and in some cases the weights have been up to 2800 pounds. 900 kg is 1980 pounds. If the kill was 70/30 bulls and cows you would get a number similar to this, as cows weigh about 950-1200 pounds.

I very much doubt there are many cape buffalo alive that weigh 900kg, or even 800kg.

A herford bull weighs about 1300-1600 pounds, a brahaman bull can weigh 3000 pounds, but most weigh 2400 pounds. A Chianina bull will weight 3000-4000 pounds, and they are the largest domestic animals, bigger than shire horses.

I have heard many times that a gaur is the largest bovine, with weights up to 2800 pounds. I have only seen, zoo gaur which should be the heaviest going, and none of them was near that weight. I think they are similar to bison in size. As are water buffalo.

Wisent are about 400 pounds lighter than bison, and yak are similar in size to a herford.

So the cattle size hiearchy would look something like this.

1. WOODS BISON
2. PLAINS BISON
2. INDIAN GAUR
4. WATER BUFFALO
5. EUROPEAN WISENT
6. CAPE BUFFALO
7. BANTENG
7. NW BUFFALO
9. FOREST BUFFALO
10. ANOA

The tammaraw and carabow, and the other wild cattle are rare enough they aren't hunted.

I am unsure we

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
DC300:

I beg to differ on your take of answers.

Life and death are physical events and as such have to and do conform to physical rules. Thus it is possible ( and it has been modelled) to describe and predict accurately the parameters that govern these events.

So if you have an animal of certain body mass and you make a hole of specified size in a large artery or organ system and it is allowed to bleed out the blood volume loss can be determined per unit of time and based on that particular species it can also be calculated how long it would take for shock to set in, and what point shock becomes irreversable.

Fairburn-Sykes the designer of the famous WW2 dagger published a treatise on the killing of humans by means of stabbing and in this appeared his " time tale of death." ( it is controversial and very very politically incorrect in our current times )

This timetable of death is controversial in that it is deemed offensive as the basis for the assumptions are based on experimentation presumed to have been done on animals and human subjects. At any rate the "bleed out" time of a species can be listed ( and is)

Easy does it, ALF. All I offered were some observations and opinions. After noting your many lengthy responses, I'll give in and say you win the pissing contest.

Happy now????

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quote:

Originally posted by cats:
I recall an old outdoors mag...could it have been Outdoor Life?... where a report was done on a lion being put into a cage with a medium size BLACK BEAR with the intention of watching a grand old fight. The result was that when the lion approached the blackie smacked him once with his paw and 1 dead cat resulted.

cats,

I might buy it if it were a Grizzly but I seriously doubt the average black bear can deal a single death blow to your average healthy lion.

ALF - Keep in mind this is just an opinion!

sorry to say your wrong as confirmed by TSJ and indeed it was a black bear...just imagine what a coastal grizzly is capable of.
don't think grizzlies are DANGEROUS enough for being included in DG...ask the late Tim Tredwell's family (not that he didn't have it coming)

Good job on the data, big animals are tougher to kill, bottom line!

bisonhunter1:

When I first saw this thread, I figured it was another one of those useless arguments that lead nowheres - but I read the posts and yours struck a chord.

It was your mention of the 444 Marlin and your experience with it on deer. I bought a 444 Marlin to use on black bear hunts in Ontario (where I sat on the ground) As it happened I never got to shoot a bear with it - but I have shot a fair amount of deer. (When I was 16 I was shooting deer in commercial apple orchards under special permit from the NY Conservation Department (as it was called in those days) I usually shot at ranges of no more than about 80-90 feet with a 12 ga. slug (2 3/4 chamber) (We didn't have rifled slugs then) Sometimes the deer ( I was restricted to bucks only) dropped on the spot. Sometimes the buck didn't even seem to stagger and ran off. I usually found them within a 100 yards - but like you say, you just don't know what an animal will do. I heard my PH in Africa tell me quite seriously that he regarded all African animals to be harder to kill than anything in North America. How could I make an argument? I have read in this website that elk can be incredibly difficult to drop. The comments came from Westerners and I believe them. Am I supposed to accept as gospel if African hunters say the eland or even a kudu is "tougher"? As far as I'm concerned I believe that it all comes down to whether the animal has the adrenalin flowing - and whether the bullet hit just that "right spot".

quote:

Originally posted by cats:
sorry to say your wrong as confirmed by TSJ and indeed it was a black bear...just imagine what a coastal grizzly is capable of.
don't think grizzlies are DANGEROUS enough for being included in DG...ask the late Tim Tredwell's family (not that he didn't have it coming)

TSJ said the bear broke the lion's shoulder and it had to be destroyed. I said something about a single death blow. I guess I should have been clearer. The lion was killed by humans after it received an injury from the bear. It was NOT killed by the bear.

Are we cool now?