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| One Of Us |
Ray, Just out of curiousity, how is it that "those guys" (That is if you're refering to Congo Safaris Expeditions owned by George Angelides), have "always" tried to get you to book in the DRC? Hunting is just starting up again! Unless you are refering to Congo-Brazzaville, which is a differant country and differant (mainly french?) operators... Stating that the DRC is full of Ak toting nutcases is total BS! Yes, some areas, mainly to the northeast are full of crap and still under rebel contol, but then the rest is no worse, and mostly better than many places we been through in africa. I've had contact with several people who have driven through the country in the past couple of years, and they all had a nice (and safe) time. Yes, travelling in the DRC and several other african countrys isn't for the weak of health and inexperianced. If that's a problem then all one has to do is stick to the more civilized countrys. "The food is scary, the weather really sucks, the whole placd stinks..." Where's your sence of adventure! I've always thought of you as a toughass guy who drinks Giardia extracts for breakfast, sips some Typhoid infested water for lunch and eats malaria mosquitos for dinner! Am I mistaken???  If you want, I can forward the info to you so you can see if this might be something differant than you think, and perhaps something that can benifit you in your work. I guarantee that the document doesn't smell or have scary food stains that might upset you!  Seriously though, there is no way anyone can say that hunting todays DRC wouldn't be an unusual adventure. Erik D. www.dunia.no | ||
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| One Of Us |
One of the many nice PHs my wife and I met, and stayed with while driving through africa sent me an e-mail the other day regarding hunting in the DRC. There has been no commercial hunting there for about 30 years, and although most often think of this country as wartorn and destroyed, the fact is that it's so big, that large areas have been, and still are uninhabited. If there is any african hunting country with regions that can be regarded as virgin territory it has to be the DRC. Basically, I would think that if you want a "Dr. Livingstone I presume" kind of adventure, were you will to a certain degree be making hunting history, this is the place to go! Needless to say, this is not a cheap hunt, far from it. However there is a -25% discount for the first season. Trophy sizes are said to be terrific, since no trophy hunting has gone on in DRC for such a long time. I can forward the Word doc. to anyone interested, if you send me a "PM" with your e-mail address. It's unfortunatly out of my price range, but I offered him to come down as a gunbearer and shoe polisher! Erik D. www.dunia.no | |||
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Those guys are always trying to get me to book hunts there, but I won't do it, they need to shoot all the roving bands of malcontents packing AK47 first.... I don't buy off on that crap, Livingston died there and you may join him..The food is scary, the weather really sucks, the whole placd stinks like an outhouse, lots of poaching and thats is just for beginners IMO...Unless it has changed drastically and I have not heard anything good about it except from some Frenchmen, and who is going to trust the French! | |||
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Dealing with weather and mother nature is one thing, but the experience of having someone shove an AK47 in your face while you shit your pants is another. That's not an adventure, that is just stupid to put yourself in a situation where that may possibly happen. 9 out of 10 times it may not happen, 99 out of 100 times it may not happen, but if you are involved in that one time, you'd be singing a different tune. | |||
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Don't forget "ebola" !!!! | |||
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| One of Us |
Quote: I think he was talking about uninhabited areas, and your description sounds more like a city. We would also talk about the roving bands of thugs in RSA who try to hijack cars of foreign tourists. | |||
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I was booked to visit Brazza Congo last year (to work with pygmies on a cultural project) but the project was abandonded after massacres in two of the villages I was to live in.  No one could guarantee my safety.  And that�s supposed to be the more quiet of the Congos! My good friend Marius gave me a piece of advice on Kinshasa: Don�t got there it�s full of crooks and you�re the wrong color.  Another friend pointed out that West-Africa is the "whitemans grave". Still another said to stear clear of all on Francophile Africa as they actually are crooks! And one of the good old boys of African hunting (Bell maybe?) said that in order to survive in Africa you have to learn to trust your "gut feeling". Be sure your will and other papers are in order before you go! Happy hunting. | |||
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| One Of Us |
[quoteI think he was talking about uninhabited areas, and your description sounds more like a city. We would also talk about the roving bands of thugs in RSA who try to hijack cars of foreign tourists. It sound to me like Rays DRC experiance is perhaps based on city experiance. Not the bush Generally speaking I would say that fear of travelling to DRC (and many other less visited african countrys) are based on fear of the unknown, and to a degree what one reads on the government "travel warning" pages. A lot of what is written there is based on politics, not real security issues. The chance of being pointed at with an AK when in the stable parts of DRC is minimal. Lets compare the DRC to another devided african country: Sudan. Just because it isn't very safe in the south and west doesn't mean the rest is dangerous! Erik D. www.dunia.no | |||
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Quote: Then don't travel to New York City. | |||
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Advice taken. | |||
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Erick, I have not delt with George but he is top notch by reputation, but apparantly I offended you in which case perhaps you should not ask a question if you don't want an answer.. It appears to me you have an agenda and I stepped on your toes and if the shoe fits then wear it...but I will tell you this and I don't even know you, but I have spent more time in the bush than you seem to think and probably a lot more than you have...so skip that BS.] Apparantly your one of those guys who wants to be agree with when you ask a question and if you don't get your way you get angry... Based on that I simply will not reply to your questions nor you mine...fair enough, Hope you sell some of those hunts, but be carefull on this forum its pretty easy to paint yourself into a corner... | |||
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Eric Dont forget to pass on our regards to Jean Bertrand Aristide when you visit DRC, I think he is on an ALL EXPENSES vaction courtesy of his Haiti bank account Peter | |||
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| One Of Us |
Ray, First of all, I didn't ask a question. I simply said that I had recieved info on the DRC and was willing to share it with anyone else who might be interested. Incase I wasn't totally clear on the issue; I don't sell hunts. You do (as far as I have understood), and thus I thought it might even be of interest for you too. I happen to know one of the pHs in the outfit, who's a good guy. That's basically the whole story. I do have a pretty sharp and ironic sence of humor. Sometimes maybe a bit to sarcastic... I know that you have vast experiance in the bush. I have also noticed that you have a rather sharp sence of humor yourself and when you dished it out, then I presumed you'd be game to be on the recieving end too! Didn't you see the "smileys" on my post to you? Sorry if I stepped on your toes, but it seems to me that you were begging for trouble with your first respons!!! I have no need to be agreed with when asking a question (which I wasn't in this case), but I think it's justifiable to respond to what I perceive as BS. That DRC isn't the easiest place to go to doesn't need saying, but when you post that the whole country stinks like an outhouse, the food is scary etc. then you should expect to be disagreed with! I know that you have much more experiance hunting in the african bush than me and most others here, and I enjoy reading and learning from your posts. I don't always agree with what you write, but that's what individuality is about. I will post replies on your posts if I feel that I have anything to contribute, and I seriously hope you'll do the same back. Even if we don't see eye to eye on absolutly everything. I've only been on 2 dedicated hunting trips to africa, but have picked up a thing or two crossing the continent. Things that many hunters might not, since they aren't exposed to the same things that we were. Some of our observations might be benificial for others. At least I hope so. As I try to benifit from others experiances. The point is as I see it, people shouldn't be afraid of going to less visited places (within reason), even if the area has had a troubled past not long ago. Where we call the line on what's exeptable is up to each of us. IMO! Erik D. www.dunia.no | |||
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| One of Us |
Ray can help us all out here by telling us how many times he has been to the Congo, what areas he went to, what he found in those areas, and why he thinks it smelled bad and was unsafe. If we were not to hunt in countries from which bad stories originate, no one would hunt RSA because of stories of armed thugs and rip-off PH's. That may not be what the majority of people hunting in RSA experience, but we have all 'heard' the stories. I think it's great that people are trying to open new hunting areas, and I congratulate the folks trying to put things together in the Congo. Personally I would prefer to hunt the vast forests of the Congo than to hunt a 40 acre fenced paddock on the Cape. | |||
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I can vouch for the outfitter and Ph in question here. Dougie Stephenson (PH/outfitter) is an honorable man with a fantastic reputation. He would not risk the life of a client by armed thugs (or his) for $$$$! One that books with him can trust him! | |||
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| One Of Us |
Peter, I think Jean Bertrand Aristide escaped to the Cental African Republic (CAR). But with his plump Haiti bank account, he might want to take a hunting vacation in DRC since it's right nextdoor! Erik D. www.dunia.no | |||
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Quote: It is clear Ray was mixed up about which county was being talked about. Quote: Ray has used the same line when speaking of other Central african countries. The only problem is in this case this is the first season the DRC has opened for hunting in thirty years. When Ray says "Those guys are always trying to get me to book hunts there" it is obvious he was thinking of a different country. Jason | |||
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| one of us |
Eric, I have been to most of the Northern countries of Africa and looked them over, including the Congo, but I did group them all into one bunch so perhaps that is not altogether proper and I will try not to do that in the future... To be honest, I don't like that part of the world and some prejudice came over me, I don't like humidity, a vegitation floor that smells like an outhouse and areas where desease is prevelent and good food is hard to come by..I believe the Northern countries offer great difficulty for 99% of the hunters I deal with, but some hearty individuals will surely take to the challange, and enjoy it because of that and to them I aplaud... In this post I took the Hunt Consultants stance, and I would not send one of my client into a zone where rebels, bandits or possible terror could exist within reason, which does not mean that I wouldn't go there if I wanted a huge Lord Derby Eland or Bongo... So, rather than a difference of opinnion, I believe we just saw it in a different prospective and I was lax in my interpetition of your original post...for that I apoligise. | |||
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| One Of Us |
Ray, No problems. I hope you enjoyed reading the info I sent you. Everyone's differant and that's what makes the world turn. Things you didn't like in north and west africa were things that I found challenging, of course, but in an interesting way that we generally enjoyed. In fact, my wife and I felt that things were actually too easy and civilized when we reached east africa and continued south... Differant strokes for differant folks. I like west and north africa and look forward to returning. Hunting in the DRC might be out of my economical reach, but if I could afford it, I'd definatly go. But then I've always been drawn to strange and unaccessable places! You being a hunting consultant, I'm sure everyone understands that you need to be cautious. But things change contantly in africa, and luckily sometimes to the better. Lets hope that's the case with such an interesting hunting destination as the DRC! Erik D. www.dunia.no | |||
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Erick, Did you know that you can actually hunt their without a PH. Now that would be a challange but it can be done, although I would not recommend it to anyone, it has been done in the past in most of the Northern countries where the laws generally allow it...That would put it in the affordable price range for about anyone with a few extra bucks. Sounds like to me something like this might be right up your alley, if the new regime allows it. | |||
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| One Of Us |
Ray, I think you may be right about former solo hunting in the DRC, but I'm not totally sure. There was a guy named Reinald von Meurers who did a lot of stuff on his own in central africa, but I don't remember if he was in DRC or Congo-Brazzaville... I have a book by him and will have a new look at it. I have thought about solo hunting (in Cameroon I think it might also still be possible, and I know that a couple of Norwegians have done it in the past), but I feel that I don't have enough hunting experiance in africa yet. The travelling around in remote areas unsupported kind of challenges, eating what's available, getting sick without medical facilities available (we thus had to be our own 4X4 pharmacy...), dealing with corrupt officals etc, all this we've had more than our fair share of, and became used to dealing with. Hunting DRG is of course another matter, and I think it's a good idea to gain some experiance on that first before going alone. In fact I'm sure it would be plain stupid not to have any DRG experiance no matter how many other animals I've shot! You may think I'm a nutcase since I like weird places, but I'm not totally dense, and know my own limits! Want to take me down to Tanzania for DRG leasons?!?! Did you find the DRC info interesting reading? Erik D. www.dunia.no | |||
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Erik Please email me the doc. I would be interested in seeing it. Out of interest only. Thanks. | |||
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Yes, I found it interresting and have filed it away for future reference...I know some of the Safari Companies up North are booked as much as 5 years in advance on Bongo and Lord Darby Eland...that is a lot in advance, I would never recommend booking anything 5 years in advance BTW, one might pull a Jaco on ya.... | |||
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Erik, Thanks for the info, it was facinating. It is easy to say when you don't have the money, but I'd love to go on such a ground breaking safari! | |||
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| One of Us |
Sounds to me like a jungle hunt in the Congo is just the ticket for someone who wants a true wilderness hunt in an area that has not seen a hunter for 30 years. The naysayers appear to not have been there and do not know what they are talking about. There is no such thing as a 5 year waiting list in a country that just opened up, by the way. And it is slanderous to equate a new but legitimate hunting operation with another operation that happened to be dishonest. The bulk of the ripoffs occur in RSA, so anyone concerned about honest should be pointing his finger there rather than sending his clients there. I think I will take the naysaysers efforts to sabatoge this thread with a grain of salt. | |||
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Quote: Yes an incredible attempt to sabotage this thread. | |||
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| One Of Us |
The criticism, which I have found rather unfounded, makes me wonder about the naysayers motives... Perhaps I should have added "Don't kill the messanger" to the DRC thread title... Although I would have thought this wasn't necessary in an adult african hunting forum. Erik D. www.dunia.no | |||
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| one of us |
I talked to George Angelides's people in Dallas and what they are trying to do will require alot of stamina and will power. I have been to Cameroon 4 times and have successfully taken a Derby on a self guided hunt. I have hunted the forest for over 60 days most of which were with just the pygmies. Everything in central Africa is very hard to do for a long period of time. Most of the operators in Cameroon I know and I have a good friend that has been on over 20 self-guided safaris all over central Africa and they all say the same. I hope George has a successful company but the logistics blows my mind! Mike | |||
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EricD, your vision version of the debate is refreshing. Hunting in Central Africa separats the men from the boys.  It appears that nobody cares, but the classic safari is still available there - actually not the Eastern myth, rather Dr. Livingstone's flair. Skilled head and sponsor of your own safari. I confess to the enjoyment of a real difficulty. Stromberg | |||
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Mike You have been there and done that so your input is extremely valuable .... Your salient point about {logistics} is the key to the equation IMHO ... WE all know even in sunny first world !! South Africa the logistics can at times compound upon a successful hunt particularily if the operator is taking clients to multiple concession areas. Then when we start talking about Zimbabwe Namibia Botswana the equation can become more difficult again for obvious reasons. From personal experience even where we operate in Zambia can be difficult at times as we have to charter in deep bush to the kafue national park region & the logitics of replenishing supplies co-ordinating with local airports miscellaneous unplanned occurances and the likes all make for a challenging safari experience. Now as we go futher North and into the less popular and more remote Africa regions the logistics can often be a nightmare. There are some hardy hunters whom can put up with the challenge BUT they are the exception rather than the rule, so be cognisant of the challenge as dreams can become a nightmare both in expense and heartache. Wishing all those interested a wonderful hunting experience Peter | |||
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Classic post. | |||
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| One of Us |
Unless you are outright lied to, you would have to be pretty daft to fall for a hunt in a 40 acre fenced paddock in the Cape.  Book with reutable outfitters, ask the right questions..... | |||
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| One of Us |
The Congo is the richest country in Africa and the race for its resources is on. 1)The world bank has already rebuilt the railway from South Africa to a point just south of Kisangani on the Congo River. 2)The world bank is building a DC power line from the Congop River that is heading for RSA. There are plans to dam the Congo River. Enough power there for all of southern Africa. 3) The Chinese are building a paved highway from Mombassa on the coast of Kenya to Kivu province in eastern Congo right now. The Chinese already have thousands of soldiers in Sudan allegedly guarding their oil interests but these troops could be funnelled into Congo over night. 4) Be cause missionaries have already rebuilt the roads and bridges from Isiro to the Sudan border. 5)The UN has thousands of soldiers and military equipment there now such as 6 helicopter gunships trying to pacify the north east. The problem is there is no central government and they will try to solve that with an election in June. That's why 1,500 German paratroopers are there now. There are no guarantees about the place at all but lots of people and nations have an interest in its being stable and are spending alot of money trying to make that happen. Maybe it will work. Maybe it won't. But its worth taking a look. VBR, Ted Gorsline | |||
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Addenda Hunting has never actually closed in the Congo. There have been about six different companies try to get something going in the past 10 years. They have included Sauro Albertini, Daniel Henriot, Felix Barrado, the late Peter Pickler, some Belgiums, George Angelides and a few others. There are Kenya bassed photo safaris in Garamba Park that have been going for years independant of visas from Kinshasha. But because there has been no real central government and because there have been so many free lance rebel groups it hasn't panned out. The June election is the first big step in the right direction. VBR, Ted Gorsline | |||
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John, You are indeed correct, as parts of this thread are real classics from back then. I couldn't help laughing when I reread these parts of this 2 year old post from above:
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!  | |||
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| One of Us |
I would love in hunt in the Congo. Need a sugar daddy probably though. Hey Erik the two of us should head in their with a couple of good video cameras. Never know what it would turn up. | |||
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Erik It's funny how things have changed around this website in the past couple of years. The place sure seems more civil. I wonder what has changed.  Jason Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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My cousin spent two years in the Peace Corp in Rwanda just before the civil war. She was friends with a man from Congo. His parents had a trading business that roamed all over central Africa buying anything that came out of the ground, mostly crops and coffee. They had a partner in Belgium that sold the goods they bought. Immanuel moved to Canada for college. ONe day he got a phone call from a friend who told him the family's entire holdings in COngo were appropiated and his parents were put in prison as CIA agents. When somone is too successful in a cleptocracy the standard charge is they are CIA agents. Immanual lost everything including the money in his checking account. He was completely broke with no home and no where to go so he called my Uncle. He said to go to the U.S. consulate and he got a refugee visa and moved to Minneapolis. We more or less took him under our wing. He got a place to live and a job. He wasn't like some immigrants we hear about: He spoke superb French, English, German and four other languages as well. He had several degrees from the American University in Rwanda plus college in Canada. His parents sat in prison for a few months. Finally his mother was let go on house arrest in one of their homes in Congo. A year or so later his father was released. They lost all their farms (plantations) and property. They moved to Rwanda a year or so later. Most of the children weren't swept up in the arrests since they'd already moved. Immanual would tell stories about travelling all over Africa buying crops, esp. coffee with his father. Driving in the mud and clouds of dust. The animals on thier plantations. The crushing poverty and astounding beauty of Congo and central Africa. One evening he was watching the sun going down. I watched Immanuel and asked what he was seeing. He said when he was little his father would start up a dirt bike and race up and down the roads on their farm he was hearing the sound of the dirt bike. Then the civil war broke out in Rwanda. His parents were living on a farm right dead center in the middle of the massacres. Immanuel went to Rwanda and Congo looking for his parents and two brothers when things died down. He spent a month talking to everyone he could but no one ever knew what happened but part of his family simply vanished. Things are getting better in Congo. There is a govt sort of functioning but mostly you're on your own. I bet you'd be a real novelty, a white man out on a hunt. Maybe even considered a RICH white man, an easy target. It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance | |||
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