Buffalo, rhino? elephant?

I am not really that interested in whether it could be done. I'm just curious whether it ever was.

H. C.

I'm sure Modele has - several times

A certain president with a penchant for bears certainly did!

www.buffaloboreammo.com
www.garrettsammo.com

Both provide testimony as to it being done already.
I'm sure there are more. ~~~Suluuq

450 alaskan with brass solids... it's in africa the last 10 days, and I'll find out more later. While not a factory round, it's much more than 45/70 and not alot behind 458.
jeffe

Lots of buffalo and elephant have been killed with the 7.62 x 39. And that's a damn foolish expedition as well.

I can provide two examples, both performed by hunters I know well. Both are Africans.

Danie van Graan has killed Cape buff with his CoPilot .45-70. There is a picture of one kill on the Wild West Guns web site. (Lever example)

Don Heath told me about a Cape buff cull he was on where he used an FN-FAL in 7.62X51 with military ball ammunition. Three round bursts to the chest worked well.(Pop-gun example)

jim dodd

I'm sure some have, but that proves nothing, I have killed a few Buffalo with a borrowed 308 and military ball ammo, but that does not a Buffalo rifle make...

I killed a lot of deer in my youth with a Win. M-63 auto in 22 L.R. and I know the 22 is not a deer gun....

This was just posted on the Marlin Talk forum...

Just got a response from MARK LaQuieu, one of the 2 owners of Ngamiland Safaris in Botswana, SA.
I'll respond directly to Mark on some questions he asked concerning custom Lever Actions ... and, further question him about the Elephant (and other DG) he's taken with his Marlin 1895G "457ww". But, there's enough below to help us Lever Action folk feel a lot better about our chances on DG Safari.

Since I've chrono'd (Oehler 35P) Buffalo Bore's Hard Cast 430gr exiting my 19" Badger @1850fps, I would feel well equipt with my 1895DRC. And, when the 450-110DRC is out of development/testing, would certainly have no issue running those 450gr FN-FMJs at 2200fps on DG Safari.

Here is Mark's response:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rich, this is Mark just off safari so I have to be quick.
I use a Marlin 1895G Guide Gun and I have had it drilled out to Wild West's 457ww. It pushes the 450 FN-FMJ to a speed of 1900 flat and it flattens elephants. No question that your new load will do marvals with that bullet. I wish I had what you are talking about. As with my 0.1" longer 45-70 (457ww), I have been trying to find someone to build me a 45-90 or so for a lever gun but with no luck.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mark also gave me his phone number. After responding by email, I plan to call him and discuss several custom Lever Action possibilities.

JEFFEOSSO, I would like to know where did you get them solid brass bullets from?. I would love to get some of them. I think that would be the ticket.I am getting a 50-110 and have order some GSCustom FNs 500 grain bullets, who knows when I'll get them, but solid brass sounds great, what is the mep plate on the them? are they wide flat nose?. Kev

If the 45-70 allegedly flattens elephants, then why is he looking for a 45-90?

We were discussing the 45/70 out of a Marlin Lever Action, weren't we?

If you had a Marlin Lever Action in 45/70 why would you be looking for a 45/90/110/or a 457www?

I was just reading an article on the 450/577, so you mights well apply it to 45/70 with custom loads as well.
Dr P.J. Shoeman shot many of the big 5 with his martini, the cutom for old time ele hunters was to drill a hole in the tip and insert a large headed nail or screw into it. These loads they used for frontal shots on ele and rhino. "Nailed" them, so to speak.
J. Robbertse and his friend Bouwer shot over 300 ele with there martini's, ect ect.
Recently, a Dr Potgieter and his friends started useing martini sporters for much of their hunting. One shot a buff in Botswana with a hardened lead "solid" It went into the ribs, through the heart, broke the off shoulder and stopped under the hide there.
I cant imagine there is alot of shock, from such a load, but it will obviously kill.

Most of my shooting is done on paper and whitetail deer i shoot the .338 win. mag. and a Marlin 45/70. Both will handle the biggest bear that ever walked, with the 45/70 being my favorite. If i ever get to go to Africa i will probibly use a .458 dia. bullet , but it wont come out of my Marlin . I would hope it be a bolt action rifle in 450 Dakota.

Troll Bullshit - Deleted

[ 12-06-2002, 07:21: Message edited by: 500 AHR ]

Anyone want to work up some hand loads with blue dot for him?

500 Grains,
What do you mean allegedly flattens elephants? Didn't you see the picture. Mark LaQuieu was standing in front of the elephant with his Marlin 45/70. Are you calling him a liar? Do you think he faked the photo? You are so narrow minded that you cannot respond to clear evidence except by regurgitating the same old platitides (500 grains at 2150 bla bla bla...).

By the way, check out the Rhino Bullets website seems there are more and more users of the 45/70 on DG coming out of the wood work.

http://www.rhinobullets.co.za/reviews.htm

Not that this will change any of the closed minds over here.

Jeff


Jeff Collins

jnc91,

quote:

---

On my last safari I had to dispatch Wildebeest, Zebra, Giraffe and Nyala that clients had wounded. I used my trusty Marlin in 45-70 Gov. with Rhino 360gr bullets and all the animals dropped at the first shot.

---

The above quote from your link to Rhinobullets.

So as I understand it he used the 45/70 Marlin to finish off game already shot by the client? Is that how you understand his use of the 45/70?

Rusty
We band of brothers!

Troll Bullshit - Deleted

[ 12-06-2002, 07:23: Message edited by: 500 AHR ]

Rusty,
It seems as though I may have mistated the article slightly, it was unintentional. He does only mention using the 45/70 as a backup on thin skinned game to finish off animals wounded by clients. Wounded game of the variety he mentioned can be very difficult to put down but certainly do not need the penetration necessary for the thick skinned variety so this article does little to prove that point.

He did mention however, having full confidence in the 45/70 for use on the big cats which would certainly qualify as dangerous game.

I think the question is not whether a 45/70 is equal to a .458 Win or any of the big stoppers loaded with the proper bullets. I think that a cursory glance at the numbers tells us that it is not.

But whether the 45/70 is comprable to the 9.3x62 or the .375 H&H as fitting within the catagory of rounds that are minimumly effective on dangerous game if one uses the correct load and bullets and is judicious about his shot selection.

Many people may not be comfortable operating within the parameters imposed by the cartridge and if so they are perfectly entitled to use a more powerful rifle provided they can shoot it well. I would submit however that the hunters who would be uncomfortable with the 45/70 would probably not choose a 9.3 or .375 either.

I myself would use the 45/70 but it seems that I may never get the opportunity because after Dave Clay showed me one of his new 450/110's I just had to have one. Consequently my 86 Win. is being converted to the new wildcat.

The cartidge is essentially a 450/348 Ackley Imp stretched from 2.2 inches to 2.4 inches with a COAL of 2.88 inches to fit into the 86 Win. action. Powder capacity is significantly increased over the 45/70. Initial velocities have been on par with the .458 at 2425 fps with a 420 grain bullet loads developed by Tim Sundles the owner of Buffalo Bore Ammo.

The factor that cemented my decision to go with this new cartridge is that it can be downloaded to the level of the hot loaded 45/70 at very low pressure for hunting on this continent. Or if needed it can be loaded up to 45K psi which is well within the pressure limits of the new production 86 Win. action.


For what its worth,
Jeff Collins

Jeff thanks for yor reply!

I am uncomfortable using a 45/70. I would not hesitate to drag out my Safari Express in .375 for anything.

Just my own opine here! The 45/70 especially out of a lever rifle is no where near round the .375 is out of a bolt rifle. The .375 is just a better round, better bullet design, penetrates better, shoots flatter and is a genuine long range chambering! Even my Sierra Manual says the 45/70 should be only used out to 150 yards.

Now granted the 45/70 is a big bore. However it takes so much velocity to over come the poor bullet design you need to really stoke it up in a strong action like a Ruger bolt, #1, Sharpes style action.
Even at that it still isn't a poor man's .458 Mag
The only way you can get close to long range is out of a real long barrel rifle like a Sharpes.
At at long range you have lost the velocity you need to over come the bullet design again! Like I said above, just my opine!

If you get down toward Houston give me a shout. We'll go to the range and burn up some powder together!

Rusty
We band of brothers!

jnc91

Please see my post in the Penetration is the issue - merger of the lever action and 45-70 threads thread. I am the PH that wrote that to Rhino Bullets. I have since written more to them regarding the 45/70 and their bullets but the web has not been updated.

45/70 shooters/supporters can hold their heads up high. This calibre is long not dead and is doing more than some would like to see.

[ 06-30-2002, 20:06: Message edited by: Zingela ]

I have a question.

Why would a PH need to finish off thin skinned game wounded by a client?

Can't the client do the finishing off? Certainly there is no danger of a charge from a wounded kudu or impala.

Please list all PH's who shoot thin skinned game for their clients so we will know which PH's to avoid.

500grains

I am one of the PHs that finish off thin skinned animals for clients.

Firstly, we as registered PHs are bound by law to ensure that all animals shot are killed a quick and as cleanlt as possible.

Secondly, if I have a client that cannot keep up with the tracking of HIS wounded animal the I am obliged to kill it when and if I get a chance and he is not available to do it himself.

I have never and will never shoot a clients (and it is his) trophy for him if he is able to to it himself.

If you have a problem with that then I do not beleive that ethics plays any part in your hunting.

Rob,
I knew I had seen that link somewhere else when I saw it posted over on Marlin Talk now I know where. It seems that you have much to offer to this debate. It would be greatly appreciated if you would provide more information/pics regarding the performance of the 45/70 on African game.

Also when I get the stake together for my own safari I will certainly be looking for a PH who is open minded to the use of lever actions on DG. Mine will be the new 450/110 wildcat I posted about earlier.

Thank you,
Jeff Collins

Rob,

It sounds like you might be a little sensitive about the topic of a PH shooting a client's game.

In my view, the PH should arrange the camp and the hunt, locate game for the client, and evaluate the quality of the game. If the client wounds the game, then it is the PH's job to help the client get a 2nd, 3rd, 4th shot to finish it off.

If the PH has to pull his trigger, then something did not go right. If the PH shoots on a regular basis, then there is a problem with the PH's philosophy.

If the PH wants to shoot game, I am all for it. But I do not intend to pay trophy fees for game that has a PH's bullet in it.

500grains,

Did you read my post properly? I said that we as registered PHs are bound by law to dispatch client's buggar-ups as quickly and as cleanly as possible.

I am all for the client shooting his own animals, but if he wounds one (because he botched his shot)and then is unable (too unfit etc) to keep up and take his second and so on shots then am I in your appinion to leave the animal/trophy to get away?

Who would be the first to complain about having to pay for a trophy that got away and the PH could have stopped it? I bet you would not be happy if your PH did not make sure you got your trophy after you messed it up or could not keep up in tracking it.

This post is not meant to have a go at you or anyone else. We are not as you put it, "there to provide camp etc" we are there for a lot more than you think.

If you are fit enough to follow up on your wounded game, then I would more than happy to find your animal and let you dispatch it. We get all kinds coming to our side the pond that think it is going to be a walk in the park. Not so as you well may know.

I agree 100% with Zingela on this one. Many times the physical condition of clients prevents them from following wounded game. All one has to do is walk the floor of the SCI convention and see that many clients could never quickly follow up wounded game, hell some can barely get to the game before it is wounded.

This brings up one of my pet pieves the lack of physical conditioning of most African hunters. It can be best stated by a friend of mine that has done over 20 self-guided hunts in Cameroon,CAR, and the Congo. "Many of these hunters don't deserve the animals they get it is just by the expertise of their ph that they get them"

Mike

I don't usually contradict 500 grain, but on this issue I will.
I think that there is a middle ground, bounded by a wounded animal not being killed cleanly and rapidly to the PH firing before effect can be assertained from the clients shot(s). I think this is something for you to workout with your PH, but under<flame on> NO CIRCUMSTANCE SHOULD A WOUNDED ANIMAL BE ALLOWED TO SUFFER DUE TO CLIENTS PRIDE!!!<flame off>

If a hunter botches a shot, and there is opprotunity, he should perform the followup, regardless of trophy size. he should also "call" for backup, with his PH being ready, from the time the PH called the animal, to dispatch the animal.
However, if the gwh(great white hunter) has emptied his rifle, the animal is escaping a shooting window, or will move into an area where it would be irresponsible to shoot (into a herd, for instance) the PH MUST SHOOT. He is not only legally opbliged to protect his client, but morally obliged to take the animal cleanly, regardless of the clients after-the-botch attitude. I salute any PH that assists the hunter, and renders mercy to a gutshot beast. A PH that would allow the game, without trying a shot, to wander into the brush, regardless of the clients attitude (and it is attitude, the beast deserves to be taken cleanly) and be lost might wish to take a vacation and get his head in order.
I AM NOT BLAIMING A SINGLE PH FOR LOST GAME. I think you guys are dedicated and responsible.

And, the damn of it is, we all make bad shots. Anyone who tells you his game (and will probably say trophies) has never stepped more than 2 steps, and never required a finishing shot,,,, well, he needs to get down from the 50 yard baited deer stand, and shoot his 3rd head of game.

Anyway, back to the point, yes, the ph is obliged to protect the client, but also to protect the game.

jeffe