Why would anyone want a .416 Remington or Rigby or any .416 bore over a .458 bore such as the .458 Lott? The way I look at it is if you need a stopping rifle (.400 bore or better)then why not go all the way to .458. I just don't see the reason behind a .416 such as the Remington/Rigby rounds when they sell for $135.00 per box of 20. You can buy a box of 20 .458 Lott for $60.00 here in Missouri. I know for a fact you can load 400 grain bullets in the Lott at a higher velocity than the .416 bores and they will hit with just as much or more authority than the .416's. They shoot flatter too. Is it just a case of something different to shoot or is there something I'm missing in this scenerio? Cheaper/more powerful/better knockdown/more rifles available/flatter trajectory/better bullet selection........versus what????

While I may get some flack for this statement, I feel that the most important criteria for a DG rifle (assuming a caliber of .366 or greater)is adequete penetration. That said:

Some of your assumptions are somewhat true, but don't figure in things like sectional density (which is very important for penetration) and recoil (which as lots to do with weight of the rifle)... for instance:

Your scenario about the 400 grain .458 bullet gives up lots of sectional density compared to a 400 grain .416 bullet. The conventional wisdom is that you need .300 sectional density to get the penetration needed for DG and even with modern, premium bullets it is no coincidence that the mimimum generally thought of rifle is a .375 with a 300 grain bullet which has .306 SD (or maybe a 9.3x74 286 grain bullet, the same .306).

Likewise, 400 grain .458 bullets can have great velocity AT THE MUZZLE when driven from a Lott with full power loads, but they slow rapidily compared to the better ballistic coefficient of 400 grain .416's... and that makes a difference if you run across some world class plains game out to 250 yards or so as happens just when you think only DG is on the plate.

Finally, most folks want to tote their rifle when in DG country. The 1.5 lbs less in a .416 that's comfortable to shoot, compared to a Lott, can make a difference after 10K's in 100 degree weather. That little weight doesn't sound like much, but darn if it doesn't feel like 50 lbs at the end of the day.

Does a sport hunter need a Lott, probably not. If it gives you more confidence and you can shoot it, have at it! But, if you want a gun that shoots as flat as a .416 (say) Rigby (or even a .404 Jeffery) at velocities availble by reloading, a Lott ain't gonna do it. Now a .450 Dakota.. that's a different story, but get your dentist to check your fillings if you plan to shoot 500 or so full power loads getting ready for your safari.

All this aside, you will never find a PH upset with the guy who shows up with a .375 H&H loaded with solids and softs (Barnes, A-Frame, North Fork, etc) at 2500 fps, both which hit the same p.o.a., who can shoot off sticks and hit a 4" target at 150 yards and the rifle having a good scope with QD mounts... irons regulated, of course... That guy will fill his quota much quicker than a guy who flinches when he shoots a rifle with 6000 ft. lbs of energy.

So, what do I shoot... I've hunted DG with doubles in .375, .450/.400, .470 N.E. and .475 N.E. (Eley) and bolt guns in .375 and .404. I never saw much of a differene in game reaction when the bullet was well placed and have been lucky enough not to have screwed the pooch and had to rely on "stopping power" during a charge. My favorite PH's use pretty stout guns, namely a .500 Jeffery, and a .470 double and I DO rely on their expertise.

I've found that my personal limit for comfort was a Lott loaded to 2250 with 500 grain bullets, but I knew a fellow who was tougher than me and gave him that rifle...

But he's my brother and has better dental insurance than me!

I've been to Africa probably more than most who post here, but I still am nothing but a novice compared to some of the other guys (and all the PH's), so take my opinion for what it is. Just a relatively informed opinion from some experience and lots of study.. but my opinion and $3.00 won't buy a StarBucks.

I'm not sure I agree with all JudgeG's comments.
- the higher BC of the 416 projectile extends the 2" point blank range of the 458Win Mag of 204 yards to 208 yards (400gn projectile at 2400fps from both);
- the 458Win Mag recolis less than the 416 Rigby because of its lower powder charge (400gn at 2400fps in 10lb rifle 50vs 58flbs);
- if you want penetration with solids (SD is only relevant with solids) then you are unlikely to be shooting at long range (Saeed excepted) so will opt for the 500gn 458 projectile;

mike

jfm, I agree with much of what judge G had to say. I would like to add this much: for the most part, hunting DG is a close range(25-85 yd.) affair. For the most part, African DG is not impressed with velocity. The common thread you will see, over and over, in discussions regarding hunting dangerous African game can be summarized by 1)Heavy for caliber bullet, 2)Moderate velocity(2000-2400 fps.), 3)Premium bullets whether monometal or lead core, 4) Bullet size and penetration, rather than bullet speed is more important in turning or stopping a charge, 5)Accurate shot placement and familiarity with the animal's anatomy are probably of the most importance.

That said, I own and have used the .416 Rigby, the .458 WM, .470 NE, and .500 NE on DG. When the shot is perfectly placed, I have seen no difference in the effect on the animal. When the shot is less than perfect, the .500 NE wins out , hands down. But, my favorite DG rifle is my .470 Heym because it hits hard, it is well balanced, it fits me well therefore I shoot it well. In short, it fills, for me, those criteria to which I alluded above. I hope I have not rambled too long and I hope this helps.

Geronimo

I use a .416R, but are in the process of getting a .458Lott The reason? A lot of potential clients said they are not happy with a PH "backing up" on DG with a .416R. My personal favorite for shooting any/all Dangerous Game when I hunt myself would be my .375H&H, simply because I can shoot it anywhere I want up to 100m.......and at the end of the day, that is what counts! I would use it as back-up without a second thought.....It is a very unfortunate situation we are in, that people believe the bigger the better when it comes to DG.

JudgeG pretty much summed it up, with emphasis on using a 416 usually means a lighter weight rifle. I don't know any PH's that use the 375.

If you were hunting elephant bulls all the time, the Lott would be better.

But if one could brain everything it won't matter. Shot placement is king, but the bigger bores can help when the shot placement turns out to be a queen!

I have complete confidence in my 416 Taylor, sort of.

The answer starts with whether a person handloads or not. The .416's are the largest caliber with decent trajectory for "longer" shots at non-dangerous game with factory ammo. With customs regulations a hunter taking one rifle has much less hassle than multiple rifles. So, the factory .416 ammo at 2350-2400 fps with a 400 gr pill will serve the purpose for dangerous and non-dangerous game.

A technical point in favor of the .416 Rigby is lower working pressure.

AussieMike:

I was inarticulate, perhaps.

As to the 400 grain .458 bullet, yes it will go "fast" and not drop much, and recoil about the same... but:

You wouldn't want it to be your "do it all" weight in a Lott because of lesser sectional density... and to me, anyway, sectional density still makes a big difference in expanding bullets. Assuming that a 500 grain bullet and a 400 grain bullet (in the same caliber) expand to the same diameter, sectional density is a big factor in penetration. Certainly, momentum will be greater in the larger bullet in most cases since, in most mediums, the lighter bullet will decell on a more steep curve.... but I'll let Alf and those argue spin rate, fluid dynamics, etc... I will bet, however, that if you had a graph of expanding bullets and depicting how speed added to penetration versus weight, weight would pass speed (on practical applications) about six inches after impact). That make any sense?

A hundred years ago, before "premium" bullets, .300 SD mattered. With lots of lead being "shucked", the heavier at the beginning, the heavier at the end, so to speak.

Today, one can get away with lesser weights in expanding bullets because they retain weight better (keeping SD and subsequent penetration up). I shot through a buffalo several times in 1999 with 270 grain .375 bullets, for instance, but it is my humble opinion that SD's of less .28 are pushing your luck on buffalo, even with premium stuff.

So, if one gets a Lott to shoot "fast" 400 grain bullets 2.5" high at 100 yards (for plains game), to P.O.A. at 100 yards with 500 grain softs and solids for buffalo (and elephant with the solids)... and can handle the recoil and shuffling the bullets in the magazine as needed... have at it.

This blind hog found an acorn. I've got a .404 Jeffery that shoots 400 grain Wooleigh solids at 2280 "dead on" at 100 yards and Swift A-frames of the same weight 2" high at the same range and trucking on out there at 2375 fps.

I have a .458 Lott that JudgeG gave me this year. I have learned to shoot it, and have become proficient with it. It took a little getting used to, but now I just roll with the recoil and have a ball. The ammunition you mention for $60.00 has got to be Hornady. I use it to practice with, but based on the reports I have read concerning the Hornady Interlock 458 Lott loads, I would not trust them for dangerous game. If you price Federal Premiums they are more expensive than the 416 loads you mention. If you don't already have a 416 or a Lott, find someone that does and ask to shoot them. Then pick whatever you shoot best.

quote:

Originally posted by jfm:
Why would anyone want a .416 Remington or Rigby or any .416 bore over a .458 bore such as the .458 Lott?

Personally I completely agree with you. A well-known elephant hunter told me that his experience shows a 416 bullet which misses a charging elephant's brain does not turn the charge, but a .458 500 grain bullet in the same vicinity does.


As for trajectory, just use some 400 grain pointed bullets from www.northforkbullets.com or woodleigh and the Lott becomes an excellent 300 yard elk rifle.

For rabbits, load the 405 grain Remington flat nose (designed to expand at 1300 fps) and with a mild load at 2400 fps the effect is explosive.

Thanks all for your responses. I sometimes forget about sectional density in the equation but I figure with 400 grain premium bullets in .458 caliber you could handle any large plains game out to 300 yards, good sectional density or not. You're not shooting DG way out there and recoil will not be as bad with 400 grain bullets in a .458 as with a .416. 500 grain .458 bullets would be for the close up DG you would be dealing with. I am certain that I have not compared all the rifles in .416 caliber with the ones in .458 magnum caliber but what I have compared seem to be the same weight. All around 10 pounds or a little bit more. This weight can be expected when you have a DG rifle though. So once again, if you buy a DGR, why not .458 rather than .416?
I'm beginning to believe it is a matter of personal preference. With that last statement I do not mean to offend any of the people that posted here. Your answers are always appreciated. JudgeG, thank you for the lengthy explanation. I'm serious! You explain a lot that I forgot about but I still think it may be up to personal preference and possibly what you can handle as far as recoil. I just never think about the recoil factor because I like it.

Thanks,

jfm

I must admit that I like my 458 better than my 416 even though the 416 looks a whole lot cooler as a cartridge.