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I recently purchased a manual written by a father/sons team of French PH's (Maes is their last name)which gives an interesting recommendation on barrel length: when holding the rifle by the grip, barrel down on the vertical axis, the muzzle should not touch the ground. I found this quite logical for obvious reasons as barrel length becomes a function of your own physionomy and the notion of safety/reliability (no dirt, etc. clogging your barrel) rather than ballistics. I always found the arguments about barrel length and "brush" to be difficult to accept but this seems to be darn good advice. Anyone else ever heard of this recommendation? They also have a recommendation about their client's use of safeties: "Don't use them, leave them off. Hunt with the bolt handle up." They claim they have seen more good trophies lost to hunters not disengaging the safety to any other reason. _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | ||
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Some people have carried with bolt handle up and lost the bolt !! When stalking I do not use a safety . | |||
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One should be more concerned with losing your life (or one in your hunting party) than losing a good trophy. Gun saftey should come first. Gotta love the French!!!! | |||
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Agreed!!  Safety is always first! If a hunter can't figure out how or when to take the safety off just before shooting - - -  - - - well, maybe he shouldn't be behind a gun!!!!!Walking with the safety off!!!!  "America's Meat - - - SPAM" As always, Good Hunting!!! Widowmaker416 | |||
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Bwanahile, the bolt handle up is the safety part of course. And I would add that any mechanical device, including a three position Winchester style safety, can possibly be moved by brushing against a branch the wrong way or even by the hunter inadvertently. Their experience is that a lot of hunters do not have their wits about them, and this is probably very true. _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
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Well...I can't really agree with the bbl lenght issue as I know of no scenario that I would walk around or even stand with my rifle held by the grip and muzzle pointed straight down. Just tried it and it is a very unnatural position to point the rifle straight down from the side. Even the slightest angle moves the away from the ground by several inches. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Mike, I would agree that most of us don't think of this as a normal position to hold a rifle. Then again, if you have spent all day walking with your rifle in heavy brush, and therefore not on a sling, you may find yourself with the rifle in this position without really thinking about it. I know I have. The reason is probably due to the common reaction of your body looking for a position in which the muscles aren't tired. With time, your body will find every position possible hold the rifle if you get tired enough. _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
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Wink, Where I disagree is that if you hold a rifle by the pistol grip and try to get the bbl vertical as in perpendicular to the ground you must hyper extend both your wrist and your elbow...that is not natural at all. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Wink I have a 458 with a 20" barrel that I can carry quite easily in the manner you described. I always put some tape across the muzzle anyway to avoid debris getting in the barrel. On long walks it is nice to be able to just kind of let it hang there with little muscle tension used. As for the safety I've had 3 PH's that didn't use theirs and did carry the rifle with the bolt handle up. I suppose if you are used to putting the bolt handle down as you bring up the rifle it would in practicality be as fast as a safety catch. What I have found in the heat of the moment with a couple of buffalo was that after I put the safety back on following the initial shot I then forgot to take it off on the follow ups. The PH's noticed this and commented that this was one reason they didn't like safties. I do use mine but I think their reasoning had validity and of course they were used to doing it that way. Regards, Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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My father never trusted any safety and always carried his rifle with the bolt handle up and was just as effiecient getting on target while closing the bolt as anyone pulling up a rifle and flicking the saftey off. It's also common in the west especially to carry your rifle on an empty chamber until game is spotted. | |||
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I could recommend some French PHs. Eric Pasanisi. Phillipe Lue. Frederic Herbain. But as for these particular recommendations of these particular French PHs, mais non, mon ami, absolument non. Pas du tout.  Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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After using a Scout rifle I came to feel that barrel length should be a function of the shooter's height, but I've never come across this way of determining it. But those French, they are a funny race. Okie John "The 30-06 works. Period." --Finn Aagaard | |||
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I have just hunted with christophe Maes the last two weeks. His recommandation is excellent in practice for bolt action rifles ( except those withe the very accurate blaser system) . For buffalo, I had a double 450 3 1/4 NE with visible hammers ( shotwell and sons, by pedersoli) so that the problem of safety, for myself and other hunters, is nearly unexistent. ( Very good caliber on two buffalos,but the mushroom of hornady soft point is very irregular) http://dima-hunting.fr/dima-bush-camp/ | |||
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To each is his own I suppose. I don't like short barreled rifles for hunting at all. What he says about the safety is a bit silly too. As soon as we leave the truck, a round is chambered, and the safety is put on. I check that teh safety is on all the time I am walking, and it only comes off as I get on the shooting sticks, or as the rifle comes to my shoulder. | |||
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Is it because a hunter does not speak english that they would want a french PH? | |||
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Believe it or not but PHs vary in nationality and most speak several languages other than their mother tongue. I know, its not so common in America. | |||
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Same here Saeed. | |||
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+2 But I have seen a few triggers pulled straight from guys who forget their safety. Or the guys who rack a new round in the chamber before shooting. Folks do funny things under stress. Little wonder why PHs get shot... ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
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I do like short barrels, sorry Saeed. I have several with 16" barrels, they are a heavy contour for proper balance. I don't hunt at long ranges so velocity loss is not an issue. When going through brush I hold my rifle behind me usually muzzle down. A short barrel is easier in a blind or cover. If hunting open ground, spot n stalk I go with a longer barrel, 22-26". My first time in Africa I asked the PH how he wanted me to carry my rifle in terms of safety. He said, round in chamber, safety off, bolt handle up and don't f...ing shoot me. Mark | |||
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Not so silly, Saeed, for unexperienced hunters, some of which may have never shot with their recently bought "african rifle"!!! | |||
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Wink, the bolt up and no use of safety was part of the training in the 80s for french PHs and ACP. after seeing some bolts lost you wont try that much ... a bolt up can be taken in any part of vegetation also. the users of rifles need to learn how the rifle works including and chat a lot with any PH before going together ... | |||
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I will go even further. I have seen certain people who should have never left home! In fact, some of them should never have been allowed near a bloody gun  | |||
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Please say you are not referring to Walter | |||
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Interesting. I hunted with 2 different French PH's in Cameroon this winter, and neither told me to do this, nor did it themselves. I have seen some South African guys do this. They claimed it was a more definitive safety. I don't buy that...your safety is between your ears. If the safety catch is not good enough to keep you safe, with use of your brain, then maybe it's better to leave the gun unloaded and load only when you are going to shoot. | |||
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I have seen South African and Namibians do this as well. Their rifles are tools, and they get abused. The rifles they did it on had broken safeties. | |||
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Growing up in Texas, on our place, we mostly carried short lever actions - quick handling , in or out of the saddle. Out of the saddle, I walked many miles with the shortened carbine dangling from my hand. In fact its short handy manner led me to adopt a shortened side by side as a quail gun. Later I was introduced to a belt holder, that allowed the shotguns butt to be supported with the muzzles up, this was definitely a speedier method to acquire the target. Both methods have their advantages/disadvantages- like much else, to each his own- and in either case control what the muzzle covers,- ie: avoid, your foot, the horse, the hunting partner, the dogs, etc , etc DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
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Sounds ridiculous, I'd have 16" barrels on everything! Reminds me of old eastern swordsmanship theory. Where your sword should't touch the ground holding it straight down. Maybe okay for one handed swords in the eastern arts. Makes no sense for euro style, especially longswords which sometimes go from ground to sternum or armpit, and longer. | |||
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You mean like Walter?  "...Them, they were Giants!" J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset | |||
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I was talking about normal human beings. Walter does not fittest description | |||
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