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Is his admitted poaching overlooked as just seen as part of the way things were then? Mike | ||
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ROTR, I think what Taylor did was not poaching as we know it today! By that I mean, most did not consider the colonial governments as valid, and the things done were a form of protest to Colonial rule, as much as anything. I Taylor's case he hated all White authority, and to his way of thinking, the animals, there, belonged to the origenal inhabitants, not those selling the permits. He, IMO, considered the gov to be the theaf, not the poacher! When you consider the method that had to be utilized to hunt elephant ivory, and transporting it back to market, it would have take 100,000 poachers years to make a dent in the populations of ele, and other game. Sooooo, since the problem was not endangering the game, the only thing these poachers were doing was, cheating the real thieves out of their booty, the price for the permits! If one paid for the permits, he could shoot as many elephant as he could afford, so it wasn't about the ELe populations, but money, for the Gov. With today's modern vehicles, and air transfere, a commercial poacher can do great harm to the populations, and the poacher of today cares nothing for the people who live in the area, and simply waste the meat, in the case of Eles, and sell the meat from smaller animals. Guys like Taylor, supported the natives,not only with meat, but with the money from the little he got from the ivory. Folks, then, thought the wildlife was inexaustable, but if they had known what we know today, they most likely wouldn't have taken the Rhino horn at least. It seems the buffalo were then so plentiful that the small populations of folks in these wide areas, did not eat enough of them to matter. You are right it is a different time today, ButTTTTTTT, Even today, there are two kinds of poacher, one is the AK-47 carrying comercial poacher, who does the real damage, and the villager who only takes meat to feed his family. Though both are illegal, they are certainly not the same! The "family feeder", is more like Taylor, IMO, and the AK47 guy is a real criminal. Neither, are desireable, and both need to be stopped, but the feeder, should be given something to take the place of the game he needs, like the CAMP FIRE program in Zim. The AK 47 needs prison time! Taylor was no different than any of the out back hunters of his day, they all took game without paying for permits, on occasion! Right or wrong, that was the way it was! | |||
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Since I believe him to be my father, I rate him best amoung the old-time hunters. To my knowledge no other old-timer ever tried to explain the effectiveness of their rifles, much less any other rifles or calibers. Most that recorded what they hunted never even mentioned their rifles or calibers. I would suspect that many that might bad-mouth Taylor are just jealous, or completely or mostly ignorant of Africa big game hunting. And I have about as much eveidence that Capstick was queer as Capstick presented that Taylor was queer. Actually, though, Capstick wrote a piece in his Taylor biography about it and never presented any evidence, including Brian Marsh's "no-evidence" opinion. The power of the press (suggestion), I guess. The Portuguese had it in for Taylor for his poaching. I suspect that is where this rumor started. Will | |||
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quote:While all of the objective evidence that Capstick presents can very easily be seen to be a result of Taylor's anti-authority and pro-Black attitudes, Taylor's own words, extensively quoted by Capstick in his book, make a much better case for Capstick's position. There is room for either conclusion. | |||
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Personally, I don't think it matters a fig what his sexual preferences were. He was still a great hunter and very obviously a thinking man. To think that he worked out his KO theories beside a riverbank in the middle of Africa without any mathmatical aids is astounding. I have nothing but admiration for him. I think he was treated disgacefully by the authorities, his last few years must have been hell. Will, I'm really intrigued to hear that you think he may have been your father, and would love to hear more........ if I'm not intruding. You could always e-mail if you prefer to do it that way. | |||
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Shakari, I'm just kidding. I just think Taylor was one of the best, if not the best, of the old-time hunters. I greatly admire his work. Taylor revealed that he hunted almost solely for the joy of hunting, as I think the income from poaching was a secondary consideration. That characteristic I have admired more than any other. Tony Sanchez has (I hope) a new book coming out about the old-time elephant hunters. Sanchez is one of the few that are still around that actually had conversations with Taylor. I am so jealous. Will | |||
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Thanks guys..I was just wondering because I'm currently reading "African Rifles and Cartridges" where he openly admits to poaching... I don't judge him one way or the other..I just wonder what the opinions of him by all of you old Africa Hands.. Mike | |||
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<Don Martin> |
"Big Game and Big Game Rifles" is his signature piece and should be required reading for the "student" of African hunting. I, myself, am low on the learning curve, especially where DG is concerned, however I found his writing style refreshing and informative. Don Martin www.EndlessSafari.com | ||
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Alan I agree on Shadows of Shame. Quite a picture into his mind I think. His books do not take into account bullet performance because their was very little to report. Solids or softs. His theories were about Africa not Whitetails. I think that he did very well writing about what he knew and what he did. Will If he's your daddy I hate to see your momma. | |||
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Like many of his era Taylor was an out and out poacher; while he was out for adventure, he was definately in it for the money also. Like many others he resented Government interference in his plans and would not abide by the rules as many other ordinary sportsmen did. I am not sure how many ele he took in his life time, but it would make todays AK47 wielding poachers pale into insignificance by comparrison. Yes he was knowlegdable about balistics and rifles ect, but I have a feeling a lot is simply opinion and some of his writings of his own adventures are probably closer to fiction than fact...By and large, I am glad he is not around today as people of his sort give hunting a bad name. | |||
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He lived a life we can only dream of. His writings are both fascinating and credible. That's all I care to know. The predilection to tear down the greats of the past is simply out of hand. | |||
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Maneaters and Marauders is probably one of the best 'Hunting' books I have read. His dislike of people in authority is understandable.(especially the portuguese administarters). His love of Africans, well, ask anyone who has hunted in Africa, what they think of their trackers, camp staff and the village folk. I remain wholly envious of Taylor and his breed of hard, adventurous and tough old characters. DJ. | |||
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It is also a testiment to Taylor that no other African big game hunting author that I can think of has been in presumably continuous reprint for nearly 50 years. It may not be all actual fact but his books are great reads, by far the best. Will | |||
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Anyone who can stay in the bush on foot for 4 years at a time then come to town, get stinking drunk, and whip all the local toughs has got to be a little more than your average homosexual, I would certainly hesitate to call him a friggen faggot to his face I think he had about as much experience as any man on the face of this earth when it comes to shooting African game, and anyone that challanges his opinnion on elephant calibers borders on arrogance beyond belief IMO...He was no suedo expert on the subject of big game rifles, and his KO values are spot on with solids and that is what he intended....He did walk the walk more so than any of his desenters, who, in most cases, only talk the talk... | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Atkinson: "I think he had about as much experience as any man on the face of this earth when it comes to shooting African game, and anyone that challanges his opinnion on elephant calibers borders on arrogance beyond belief IMO...He was no suedo expert on the subject of big game rifles, and his KO values are spot on with solids and that is what he intended....He did walk the walk more so than any of his desenters, who, in most cases, only talk the talk..." Thank you Ray, much appreciated ... but how do you feel about Taylor? | |||
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<allen day> |
The subject of John Taylor is frought with varying opinions, plus much respect, great disdain, and no small about of good-ol'-days-style romance - the full mix!. You either believed everything he wrote, rejected everything he wrote out of hand, or else you believed some of what he wrote and dismissed some of it as fabrication. I subscribe to the later position. It's funny how guys like Taylor, who weren't universally well thought of in their heyday, become almost mythical figures who can do no wrong once they've bucked out, and every dirty deed or indisgression on their laundry list gets swept under the carpet and ignored or even justified after a fashion. That's what death often does for infamous people....... The truth is, there are no living witnesses to Taylor's deeds, so no one's interpretation of his career is necessarily any better than anyone else's. What it all amounts to is one great big book review of sorts that's open to personal interpertation. I'm mixed on Taylor, and I likely remain fixed in that position. Here's a sample of the sort of testimony that forces me into that position, this from page 99 of Taylor's book, "Big Game and Big Game Rifles" in the chapter entitled "Holland's .375 Magnum": 'I have several times had three buffalo dead to one bullet - heart shot. But the biggest bag of all was seven eland to one shot!' You can bite into that little morsel if you want to and proclaim it to be part of the Holy Writ from the "good ol' days" if you want to, but I just can't. AD | ||
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Allen, As I said above some of Taylor's tales might be tad exaggerations. But 99% of what he had to say has been substantiated over the years, in my opinion. I think the more experience one has the more truth can be seen in what Taylor had to say. An example is knocking elephants out. I'm here to say that it is the truth. Will | |||
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I'm sure that most of us have sat around a campfire from time to time and heard someone talking fluent boll***s, or at least enlarging on the truth. But that's (occasionally) just part of hunting. I guess he did his share as well, but there can be no doubt whatsoever that he lived his life, his way and had forgotten more about hunting Big Game than most of us could ever hope to learn ...... and I have nothing but admiration for the man. | |||
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<ovis> |
Guys, It's easy to slice and dice when someone is gone and can't defend himself. I seriously doubt, as per Ray, that most would berate him for his alledged sexual preferences to his face, looking him in the eye. Experience says it all about Taylor, in spades! My only regret(?) is that his word is passed down only through written word. Imagine his experience in the oral tradition, right there, first person.........the best. Joe | ||
<Antonio> |
I would have immensely enjoyed being present in the Great Tana Raid... Antonio | ||
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Alf, I've yet to see any fire. It's still just smoke. And it's irrelevant to what Taylor did. Will | |||
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Many adventurers in all kinds of arenas were/are gay, or at least freely admit to being open to it, experiencing it, if not still practicing it. George Mallory, the person I believe to have summited Everest first, dabbled in homosexuality but because it was so prevelant in the society of young men/schoolmasters at the time. The subject is only relevant to understanding the individual and should not in any way belittle the persons accomplishments. To the contrary, ones hidden demons often control his actions more than any obvious trait ever could and therefore unless all aspects can be reviewed and an opinion tendered from every angle, conjecture should be at best be considered unreliable even from such a 'reliable' source as an author. _Baxter | |||
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quote:I haven't read the book, but was he referring to "One shot, One bullet, Seven dead Eland?" or was it Seven dead Eland, all one shot kills? If it was the former, it sounds suspect. I have heard of three caribou taken with one bullet form a credible source, but they are considerably less stout than Eland. | |||
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quote:Edmund Hillory is supposd to be the first man to summit Everest. First documented case, anyway. He's still alive and well | |||
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Gatehouse, I know the books say Hillary did it first and he did make it out alive, but if you want a really interesting subject to study, look into George Mallory and Sandy Irvine's ascent of Everest. Of course alot of folks say that Mallory never made it, but theres strong suspicion both ways. Here is a link to some info, but i'll warn you, this is an addictive story and one you will find yourself wondering about as the oddest times. Best, Baxter http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/everest/lost/mystery/mallory.html | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by DJ.: [QB][QUOTE]Originally posted by ALF: Alf, Mrs Capstick has obviously decided to do the female 'gossip' thing about Taylor, and now, according to you , about Berryl Markham. I, for one have no interest in reading such tripe. If I was, I would rush down to the local book shop and get me a clutch of Mills and Boon or even a cheap tabloid. I just think it would be weird for anyone to pick up a book on hunting , and before opening it, wonder if the author is a homosexual, or whether he ever poached game. Apparently Lobengula fined Selous for over shooting hippo in the Limpopo. Does that discredit Selous as a poacher? DJ | |||
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<Peter> |
Zagaya, I for one would love to believe that George Leigh Mallory was the first to summit Everest, unfortunately, all the evidence is against it, and there is no evidence for it. Still, the romance of the gifted amateur, for which the British are famous, is still there. Having said that, Sir. Edmund Hillary and Tenzing Norgay fit the heroic mold quite well, both for their summiting, and for their activities after. I have no idea whether Mallory was a practicing homosexual or not. Certainly, the British "public schools" (in the British sense ie, Private!) had an undercurrent of such activities but just not talked about! Peter. PS. Did they ever find Irvine's body? | ||
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I think everybody is missing the point of the book "A MAN CALLED LION"! It is not a hunting book at all, but a study of a very complex man, John Taylor! Who cares if he was a poacher, and a Homosexual, that only explains some of the personality traites that caused his problems any place he went,Africa included! To top this off, IMO, this book was not written by PHC, but compiled by him, with most of the text by Tayler himself, Brian Marsh, and Fifi, and Jllie. In any case there is nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade, if it has a purpose for the calling. As I said it only explains some of the problems Taylor had in his life. I still think he was a man who loved what he did, and truley loved the Yao people. He shared, with them, anything he had, and sometimes borrowed what he didn't have for their benefite. He hated the colonial government for the way they treated the bush people, wanted no part of their boggotry, and was not shy about stateing that fact. I don't know if he was gay or not, but in defense of PHC, when you set about to write on history, all must be reported, not just what you want to hear! It is up to the reader to decide what he believes. Personally I thought the BOOK was a very interesting book, about a man I have always admired, and I accept the man as he was, not as I want to make him! This book only explains why he was treated so shabbily by the authorities! Taylor did a lot for African hunting, with his studies on caliber effects on very large game,and types of rifles used, that would be impossible today. Regardless of his private life, he was a HUNTER of the first cloth, and I thank Peter Hathaway Capstick for putting THE MAN CALLED LION together! | |||
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Peter, No they haven't found Irvine's body yet. Just his climbing staff perched precariously on a rock(for 75 years!) I think the most interesting 'evidence' that he could have made it was the fact that his climbing goggles were in his pocket, not lost, or on his face. This could have meant he summited and was walking back in the dark. Check out a book called 'The wildest dream' it deals with alot of his life's influences and whatnot. Doesn't really tell about them finding his body but you really can gain an appreciation for the utter determination he had. Remember, he is the one who climbed Everst, "Because it is there." _BAxter | |||
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Gatehouse, There are a number of people still alive who knew John Taylor... Adelino Serras Pires for one..Adelino was quite young but remembers Capstick coming to town on ocassion and spoke to him on ocassions as I recall...Harry Selby knew Taylor as did Harry Manners as I recall from conversation. As to Fiona claire Capstick, she is one of the finest ladies the hunting world has to offer, she is anything but a gossip and she does not write trash, and to suggest such a thing is pure ignorance on the subject by someone who knows not of what they speak...She will not write anytning but fact and will do it in such a way that it is not flameing..She is simply a class act. Fiona is, by the way, married to Adelino Serras Pires and they conspired to write a great book that is now in print, "The Winds of Havoc", Pires experiences as a PH in old Mozambique and far East Africa and his captivity in an African jail and the torture he was subjected too...His memoirs of adventure and the destruction of Africa that continues to this day. It is a must read for those who want to understand the politics of Africa. | |||
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Ray, didn't know Fiona was married to Adelino. That's interesting. Clearly she must love the industry and the history, else she made two bad mistakes in her pertners. Do you know anything of her past in the RSA gov't? I have heard, not to add to the rumors, that she has a rather 'interetsing' past. Dunno how good my source was but you would recognize the name. Perhaps she should wirte abook about her own interesting story. Anyonw who knows that many languages is bound to have a story to tell. _BAxter | |||
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No, I don't know a lot about her past and its none of my business....I think Adelino is a heck of a good guy...Both he and Peter always treated me cordually, and she is a pretty darn classy lady in my opinnion... I'm not much for idle gossip on folks, I figure I'll leave the judging to someone else unless they give me personally a real good reason to dislike them, then I would tell them to their face and state right out how I feel about them. | |||
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