quote:

Originally posted by nhoro:
I had the privilege of listening to Ivan's presentation on Carter's WAR at DSC Friday. It was moving, and I can't think of a better spokesperson for the cause. I also don't think there's a better outdoor producer than Branlin Shockey. We need more of this ... there's only so many ways to kill a whitetail ....

Maybe this has been discussed, tried, too complicated, too much bureaucracy, too much scope for corruption, but an Outfitter Accreditation process that could eventually be accepted by USFWS for allowing imports seems logical? Perhaps the accreditation looks at overall ecosystem health and population management, anti-poaching efforts, age class of the animals taken, employment of the local community, etc .... It basically requires an outfit to demonstrate they are ethical, they are positively impacting the ecosystem, and are basically accomplishing what we as hunters claim we bring to the conservation effort. Too many young lions, soft-boss buff, etc - you lose your accreditation and ability to export - import "trophies".

Perhaps it starts as something DSC takes on, self - regulation if you will, not unlike the definition of a "huntable male lion". If it takes roots and grows, those outfitters who are accredited can charge more to fund their efforts, and many clients will pay more knowing they're hunting with a reputable outfitter who is making a positive impact on conservation and as a result, "trophies" can be imported.

Seems logical, but as with anything the devil is in the details.

Regardless, even if USFWS never agrees to such a system, I would still welcome a self-regulating system driven by DSC, or some other organization that truly stands for hunter-based conservation efforts, cannot be "bought" and does not try to turn the accreditation process into a profit scheme.

Jerry Beardmore

quote:

Originally posted by nhoro:
I had the privilege of listening to Ivan's presentation on Carter's WAR at DSC Friday. It was moving, and I can't think of a better spokesperson for the cause. I also don't think there's a better outdoor producer than Branlin Shockey. We need more of this ... there's only so many ways to kill a whitetail ....

Maybe this has been discussed, tried, too complicated, too much bureaucracy, too much scope for corruption, but an Outfitter Accreditation process that could eventually be accepted by USFWS for allowing imports seems logical? Perhaps the accreditation looks at overall ecosystem health and population management, anti-poaching efforts, age class of the animals taken, employment of the local community, etc .... It basically requires an outfit to demonstrate they are ethical, they are positively impacting the ecosystem, and are basically accomplishing what we as hunters claim we bring to the conservation effort. Too many young lions, soft-boss buff, etc - you lose your accreditation and ability to export - import "trophies".

Perhaps it starts as something DSC takes on, self - regulation if you will, not unlike the definition of a "huntable male lion". If it takes roots and grows, those outfitters who are accredited can charge more to fund their efforts, and many clients will pay more knowing they're hunting with a reputable outfitter who is making a positive impact on conservation and as a result, "trophies" can be imported.

Seems logical, but as with anything the devil is in the details.

Regardless, even if USFWS never agrees to such a system, I would still welcome a self-regulating system driven by DSC, or some other organization that truly stands for hunter-based conservation efforts, cannot be "bought" and does not try to turn the accreditation process into a profit scheme.

Jerry Beardmore

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
I call it bullshit
Another layer of bureaucracy and USFWS to boot
Are you guys shitting me?
Anyone supporting some sort of more laws on book by USFWS has to be deranged, hallucinating and overall liberal batshit
To be PC, we are willing to get cornholed by antis every step of the way
I would expect better from some of you...

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
Lane: You think USFWS should make import decisions on all species; by analysing what is happening in local areas in every single destination?

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
Sounds like this is your idea Lane? Or a marketing idea by an outfitter?

quote:

Originally posted by Milo Shanghai:
Has the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service convinced itself that it is actually the World Fish and Wildlife Authority ?

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
Sounds like this is your idea Lane? Or a marketing idea by an outfitter?

quote:

Originally posted by Guy Whittall:
Gentlemen i have to agree with lANE here with regard to African animals. Africa has no accountability in its government wildlife structures. This is where everything has fallen apart and we have to regroup as operators and regulate ourselves.

Gone are the days an operator can rock up to his area in march,open roads,build camp and start hunting.

Today the operator has to support parks with vehicles,fuel,transport and manage their own anti poaching unit,water management,community programs etc. One would now also have to fund a recognised ecologist to carry out the game count.

Here in zimbabwe the Tobacco companies get their Social Responsibility Programs (SRP) audited every 4 years.
Flower growers lost all there exports years back due to banned chemicals being sprayed on their plants.Today in order to export one has to be associated with Fair Trade.

Lane you are on the money and places like Bubye and Save valley have had recognised specialists in the field for the last 15 years.So these 2 areas can justify populations for all species including lions and leopard.I know the save has game counts dating back to the early 90s.

But then again on the political side if the US government instruct Fish and game to apply more pressure on the zimbabwe
government then what we do in the Save or bubye means nothing.

quote:

Originally posted by nhoro:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
Sounds like this is your idea Lane? Or a marketing idea by an outfitter?

This isn't Lane's, Ivan's or any outfitters idea - and there's no way it's a new idea - but I just haven't seen a system tied to the conservation benefits we has hunters want the rest of the population to recognize and acknowledge.

I'm not an advocate of more laws or restrictions, but they keep coming - daily - and bitching and complaining hasn't slowed down the onslaught.

Perhaps being proactive and demonstrating some meaningful self-regulation as it pertains to Africa's Big 5 or Dangerous 7, the habit they occupy, and the communities involved would provide the foundation for a system which could eventually preserve the ability to import legally-taken animals. Even if it doesn't - it recognizes those outfitters who are truly making a difference in Africa today.

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
Lane, I see what you saying
I still have to side with Saeed on that one
Too many rules as it is
There is always gonna be bad apples in any venture and AR is one of the better tools to weed out bad apples, not more rules
And , yes, as a customer it might sound good to have another rule but then I would just play into a antihunting crowd's hands
I don't like it

quote:

Originally posted by nhoro:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
Sounds like this is your idea Lane? Or a marketing idea by an outfitter?

This isn't Lane's, Ivan's or any outfitters idea - and there's no way it's a new idea - but I just haven't seen a system tied to the conservation benefits we has hunters want the rest of the population to recognize and acknowledge.

I'm not an advocate of more laws or restrictions, but they keep coming - daily - and bitching and complaining hasn't slowed down the onslaught.

Perhaps being proactive and demonstrating some meaningful self-regulation as it pertains to Africa's Big 5 or Dangerous 7, the habit they occupy, and the communities involved would provide the foundation for a system which could eventually preserve the ability to import legally-taken animals. Even if it doesn't - it recognizes those outfitters who are truly making a difference in Africa today.

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
Mike, look how much hunting industry tries and you know it will never be enough for antis and USFWS
Either they will get curbed by sane and pro hunting administration or we will get curb more and more by them
With those people , there is no middle ground
It's like that with guns
That's how I see it anyway

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
Lane, we can be perfect and to THEM, it will never be enough

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
Lane, we can be perfect and to THEM, it will never be enough

Milan, my friend and again with all due respect...there is PLENTY of non-perfection to go around in the hunting industry.

Mike is correct in all he says. This would just be a means for those good operators like Bubye Valley Conservancy, Save Valley Conservancy, TGTS in Tanzania, etc etc...to set themselves apart.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Matt,
Would you begrudge a conservancy or an outfitter that could prove that the taking of lion from their area was a benefit to wild lion survival for doing so and reaping the reward???

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Matt,
Would you begrudge a conservancy or an outfitter that could prove that the taking of lion from their area was a benefit to wild lion survival for doing so and reaping the reward???

An individual/commercial entity lobbying the US Fed Govt to make exceptions? Yes I would begrudge them that - on the basis that their actions could do more harm.

Wouldn't it just make more sense to get these idiot governments to follow International Convention that they are already signatory to?

This isnt just about lion either...

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Matt,
Would you begrudge a conservancy or an outfitter that could prove that the taking of lion from their area was a benefit to wild lion survival for doing so and reaping the reward???

An individual/commercial entity lobbying the US Fed Govt to make exceptions? Yes I would begrudge them that - on the basis that their actions could do more harm.

Wouldn't it just make more sense to get these idiot governments to follow International Convention that they are already signatory to?

This isnt just about lion either...

Lobbying???

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Matt,
Would you begrudge a conservancy or an outfitter that could prove that the taking of lion from their area was a benefit to wild lion survival for doing so and reaping the reward???

An individual/commercial entity lobbying the US Fed Govt to make exceptions? Yes I would begrudge them that - on the basis that their actions could do more harm.

Wouldn't it just make more sense to get these idiot governments to follow International Convention that they are already signatory to?

This isnt just about lion either...

Lobbying???

quote:

Originally posted by Guy Whittall:
Matt graham you are right and i understand your views.

As i have stated before wildlife structures in the african countries have collapsed or are non existent.
If they can not account for what animal populations they have in their areas or off take,average age etc how can they justify their trophy and cull quotas to CITES.

Save Valley Conservancy and Bubye Conservancy have built a model for the rest of the country to follow and to improve with time.

Zimparks and Panthera developed a National Lion policy 3 years ago that has proved to be a huge success.

National elephant counts that took place 18 months ago have proved that Zimbabwe still has a large population of elephant. Operators and reognised ecologists have to capitalise on this opportunity with Zimparks to make a national policy. I have no doubt we will be hunting and exporting elephant in the next 3 to 4 years.

Zimparks,Police, the conservancy anti poaching units have killed,arrested and with the help of lisa Hywood prosecuted most of the notorious elephant and rhino poaching gangs over the xmas period.

Zimbabwe still has a foundation with in Zimparks that the zimbabwe operators have a window to rebuild to ensure we are hunting in 5 years time. This window is critical.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Matt,
Would you begrudge a conservancy or an outfitter that could prove that the taking of lion from their area was a benefit to wild lion survival for doing so and reaping the reward???

An individual/commercial entity lobbying the US Fed Govt to make exceptions? Yes I would begrudge them that - on the basis that their actions could do more harm.

Wouldn't it just make more sense to get these idiot governments to follow International Convention that they are already signatory to?

This isnt just about lion either...

Lobbying???

Yes lobbying; in the broadest sense of the word.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
It must be a great burden on you Lane; to always be the smartest person in the room.