Lion Hunting View

01 April 2011, 02:19

mufasa

Lion Hunting View

I just received my March 18,2011 Conservation Force news letter and of course it is full of the lion controversy concerning the lion being listed on the Endangered Species List. It occurred to me that if hunting the African lion was stopped wouldn't the situation be the same for the lion as what has happened in Kenya. Since the cessation of hunting in Kenya are there now lions roaming everywhere or not. The views of the two sides seem to be 1.if we stop hunting lions there will be more lions or 2. if we stop hunting lions there will be fewer lions because the lions will have no value and will be killed as vermin by non trophy hunters. So if we look at Kenya I'll bet that there are fewer lions out side of the parks than before the hunting ban was initiated. If that is the case it seems to me to be a good argument that the same thing will happen in Tanzania and probably anywhere else the lion hunting ban is mandated. I would be interested in the thoughts of the Forum on this issue. MMP

01 April 2011, 02:25

Come on! Something must be wrong....You are making too much sense.

01 April 2011, 04:10

Aaron Neilson

quote:
Originally posted by mufasa:
I just received my March 18,2011 Conservation Force news letter and of course it is full of the lion controversy concerning the lion being listed on the Endangered Species List. It occurred to me that if hunting the African lion was stopped wouldn't the situation be the same for the lion as what has happened in Kenya. Since the cessation of hunting in Kenya are there now lions roaming everywhere or not. The views of the two sides seem to be 1.if we stop hunting lions there will be more lions or 2. if we stop hunting lions there will be fewer lions because the lions will have no value and will be killed as vermin by non trophy hunters. So if we look at Kenya I'll bet that there are fewer lions out side of the parks than before the hunting ban was initiated. If that is the case it seems to me to be a good argument that the same thing will happen in Tanzania and probably anywhere else the lion hunting ban is mandated. I would be interested in the thoughts of the Forum on this issue. MMP

Mufasa - In a nutshell your assertion is 100% correct! In fact, every leading scientist/lion expert that has been helping ledvm, myself, and many others with this upcoming issue, and the Lion Conservation Task Force (LCTF), ALL AGREE! Not only will the ESA listing have a huge negative impact on the longevity of the lion throughout Tanzania/Zambia, etc. It will have a negative impact beyond what most here can imagine, or would even believe, as it pertains to the African Wildlife as a whole.

02 April 2011, 19:38

mufasa

Aaron: Thanks for the response but my real point is that maybe your group could use lion census in Kenya to show that the lion population will actually DECLINE rather that increase if the legal hunting of lions is stopped. I strongly believe that the hunting of trophy lions (older) does little or nothing to impact the overall lion population. If lions have no value as game animals then they will be considered vermin and without an economic incentive to protect them they will get hammered.

02 April 2011, 20:41

ledvm

quote:
Originally posted by mufasa:
Aaron: Thanks for the response but my real point is that maybe your group could use lion census in Kenya to show that the lion population will actually DECLINE rather that increase if the legal hunting of lions is stopped. I strongly believe that the hunting of trophy lions (older) does little or nothing to impact the overall lion population. If lions have no value as game animals then they will be considered vermin and without an economic incentive to protect them they will get hammered.

mufasa,

Your point is well taken...and...we agree. All of the experts agree with you assessment of Kenya.

Now we just have to convince USF&W and the executive branch of the U.S. gvt.!!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM

A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House

No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.

02 April 2011, 21:25

Bwanamich

Hypothetically speaking, stopping hunting WILL NOT be the end of lion or other game in the hunting blocks AS LONG AS other form of income can be GARANTEED to finance the conservation and protection activities.

some arguments put forward is that even hunting doesn't pay enough for this but is simply slowing down the inevitable process of decline in populations. This "slowing down" is important IMHO tas it buys us more time to figure out what to do and how to do it.

03 April 2011, 01:45

Tom In Tennessee

How bout teaching Birth Control in TAN, Kenya, ZIM, ZAM, BOTS.....etc......

03 April 2011, 01:51

Cane Rat

quote:
Originally posted by Tom In Tennessee:
How bout teaching Birth Control in TAN, Kenya, ZIM, ZAM, BOTS.....etc......

+1 That's the real threat and because of it there probably won't be hunting of anything in Africa in another 50 years.

03 April 2011, 01:54

Tom In Tennessee

CR, I fear you underestimate the power of rural Africans to reproduce! The one thing they do really well!

03 April 2011, 01:58

Cane Rat

quote:
Originally posted by Tom In Tennessee:
CR, I fear you underestimate the power of rural Africans to reproduce! The one thing they do really well!

You're right, it won't take 50 years and continual handouts of food, clothing, and meds by the well-meaning in the first world only aggravates the situation.

03 April 2011, 02:22

Tom In Tennessee

Just check a Project in Chattanooga!!

03 April 2011, 02:28

Aaron Neilson

quote:
Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Hypothetically speaking, stopping hunting WILL NOT be the end of lion or other game in the hunting blocks AS LONG AS other form of income can be GARANTEED to finance the conservation and protection activities.

True!! BUT, that's a REALLY BIG, "As long As"! How's that worked in Kenya so far?? Who's stepped up, outside the hunting community?? No one! Lately, maybe. But from the inception of the hunting closure, NOPE!!!

Bwana, we certainly need help from the outside, no question about it. But hypothetically speaking, if tomorrow TGT pulled out of their blocks, who would protect em?? Another hunting operator doesn't count!

03 April 2011, 06:09

jeff h

quote:
Originally posted by Tom In Tennessee:
CR, I fear you underestimate the power of rural Africans to reproduce! The one thing they do really well!

AS the joke goes "what is the most confusing day in africa....Father's day...

03 April 2011, 09:34

fujotupu

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

" But hypothetically speaking, if tomorrow TGT pulled out of their blocks, who would protect em?? "

Aaron:

With all the dedicated effort and undisclosed but very significant amounts of financial contributions poured in by TGT, why would you come up with such an "hypothetical"question and why in particular should you mention TGT?

03 April 2011, 11:52

Bwanamich

Aaron, you are right and we agree!
But remember most hunting is simply "slowing down" game population decline. Its a "better than nothing situation" for the most part, and not THE only solution. I have stated before that a combined effort by ALL stakeholders is needed to halt game population decline.