Once upon a time, back in 98, my booking agent told me that poachers are shot on sight. Is thise so?Later I was told that if you give them a slap on the hand you were overstaping your bounds. What is the real truth? D

all my modifications have not been accepted. D

D

I was told in Zimbabwe in 1994, that if you had rhino on your property and if the poachers were armed they were allowed to shoot to kill the poachers.

While there on one property we chased a poacher on foot and in the vehicle, the poacher got through to the neighbouring property and the PH emptied his revolver into the bush after him (more to scare him off than hit him as he was out of sight).

On another property a poacher was apprehended and in the midst of about 20 game guards in a truck.

On another property a game guard shot a poacher who was unarmed and so they were both off to jail.

I only hunted these three properties for one week BTW!

Elsewhere in Zimbabwe the army was busy poaching on the Zambezi while we were there (alledgedly).

Later in Zambia on the northern shore I stayed at a private farm where the Zambian army also stayed for "operations" for a few days and left after shooting several elephant (ie poaching).

A Zimbabwean friend of mine has always told me that gun-toting poachers were fair game. He told me a story, where a tourist hunter and his PH were waiting on a lion bait in the Zambezi Valley when a poacher walked up, leant his AK47 against the tree, and started cutting bits of meat off of the bait. The Ph just nudged the client and told him to take him and, aledgedly, he did! Maybe this is just a Zimbabwean "urban myth", but it makes a good bar story!

A true story, though, is when we were hunting my buffalo in the Chirisa Safari Area (way back in July '92) and my PH told me a story where the game scouts ambushed a poaching gang in Chirisa, in April of that year, and there was a major shootout. During the subsequent days of hunting, my PH kept coming across the meandering tracks of a man whom, they assumed, was a wounded poacher. They reported this to the game scouts and nothing else was heard of the matter.

My PH then turned to the game scout, who was sitting, and listening, on a nearby log and asked him what had happened and whether they found the poacher.

The game scout replied, with a huge grin, "yes, we found him and we shot him to pieces!"

So, I think it is safe to say that if they are armed or if they are found in sensitive areas (Chirisa was, at that time, a black rhino protection area) then poachers are fair game!

But if they are not armed then you should not shoot them and, I believe, that their punishment is likely to be the slap on the hand.

On another occasion, we were hunting private property near Gwanda (Zimbabwe) when we came across two poachers with rolls of wire snares over their shoulders, coming through the bush towards us. We went to ground and waited for them to get closer but, unfortunately, they spotted us before they were close enough. As they dropped their snares and turned to flee, my PH fired a shot in the air and shouted, "stop or we'll shoot" but these two guys weren't stopping for anything. I used to be a fast sprinter and we set off in pursuit but had no hope of catching them because they ran straight through the thornbushes and we ran around them. There were bits of their clothing, and some of their flesh too, I'm sure, hanging in the thornbushes - but they got away clean. I think that they knew we wouldn't shoot as they weren't armed. We destroyed a lot of snares, that day, but they would have been replaced in short order - such is the problem of poaching in Africa!

I spoke to a bloke from Zim at a dog handlers seminar. He used to be a dog handler with the anti poaching patrols. Some of the stories he told were very interesting Good use for tracker dogs BTW. I don't think alot of poachers made it to court.

One suggestion and two questions:

1. Keep a couple AK-47s handy to add verisimilitude (the appearance or semblance of truth) to the post mortem pictures.

2. What are the CITES regulations on importation of the trophies?

3. Full body, shoulder, or European mount?

lawndart

quote:

One suggestion and two questions:

1. Keep a couple AK-47s handy to add verisimilitude (the appearance or semblance of truth) to the post mortem pictures.

2. What are the CITES regulations on importation of the trophies?

3. Full body, shoulder, or European mount?

lawndart

1 You can buy a AK for next to nothing.

2 We can find out but the restrictions can be high.

3 Reminds me of the Mastercard ad - Priceless

My PH's comment about poachers in the Zambezi valley was:

"If they are armed, shoot as many as you can".

I haven`t been on a african safari yet, but of those i know personlly who has, has said that poaching often has its roots way up in the african governments, and the gameranges when catching them, can`t do a thing !

I am sure though some of the "white hunters" here on the forum may can testify what`s true or not

Back in 1991 in the Chewore North concession this was the case. Any individuals not a part of the safari were to be considered armed and dangerous. Except the canoeists which love to moon us! Just 2 short months after my early May safari my PH A. J. Van Heerden was involved in 2 fire fights after they encountered some Zambian poachers. He may have been the first to use a Rem 416 against the truly most dangerous game, the softs were not recovered... Following blood spore the following day he encountered a wounded individual who loosed the remmants of his AK magazine at him only to recieve a coup de gras, from the venerable '06 A J had taken up due to it's larger magazine capacity. That individual turned out to be a Capt in the Zambian Army whose brother was a Minister of Ecology or some such!

I hope no one here thinks i'm too sick, but, I'd love to see what some of them big bore rounds would do to a human. Really like to see what the .577 T-Rex, .505 Gibbs, 500 N.E. would do.

On a previous hunt to Zim a PH told me a story of some hunters in Matetsi waiting on a bait when two armed poachers turn up and start steeling the bait. The PH tell's the client to shoot the one on the right on the count of three, on three the PH shoot's the one on the left but the client decides this is not for him, so this leaves a running shot at the second one for the PH. The shot is a little further south than preferred and a follow up is required. I was told this guy traveled quite some distance holding his intestines in.
Another time the subject came up and the PH asked if I would help if the situation arose. I said I would have to think hard about it at the time. His comment was I wouldn't get much time to think about it as I would have to catch up if I wanted to join in.

In the 1980's in Kenya, the press had just reported a conflict between some game wardens and poachers, who'd been driven off. That brings to my mind the image of a couple of gamewardens and poachers with couple Enfileds, maybe. This wasn't the case, according to the Embassy staff (I can't recall whether it was Kenya or Somalia). I was visiting both countries about their Foreign Military Sales credits, and gained me what they assured me was the real backstory.

The poachers were not a couple of guys with Enfields; they were a column of the Somali army, whose wages had gone into the warlord's pockets, and who needed money to buy food. They'd cross into Kenya, hose down a herd of elephants with jeep-mounted .51 cal MGs, collect the ivory, and hie back to Somalia.

The gamewardens may have started with a couple of guys with Enfields, but there's no artificial distinction between them and the rest of the officially-armed Kenyans. The gamewardens radioed in the anti-tank helicopters and the F-5E fighter bombers, who cleaned up the column, leaving smoking wreckage. (It wasn't an "offical" invasion, so the Kenyan media took the lead from Daniel Arap Moi (spelling?), Kenya's then-ruler.)

I'm therefore conditioned to (1) disbelieve stories emanating from African press accounts on poaching, and (2) believe poaching is bigger than a couple of guys with AK's.

I believe I'd give the PH the shot and just stay the hell out of it.

Jaywalker

quote:

Originally posted by C.Wathen:
I hope no one here thinks i'm too sick, but, I'd love to see what some of them big bore rounds would do to a human. Really like to see what the .577 T-Rex, .505 Gibbs, 500 N.E. would do.

I would too. How about shooting your wife or kid, and then posting pics?

They don't poach. Do you?

quote:

Originally posted by Jaywalker:
In the 1980's in Kenya, the press had just reported a conflict between some game wardens and poachers, who'd been driven off. That brings to my mind the image of a couple of gamewardens and poachers with couple Enfileds, maybe. This wasn't the case, according to the Embassy staff (I can't recall whether it was Kenya or Somalia). I was visiting both countries about their Foreign Military Sales credits, and gained me what they assured me was the real backstory.

The poachers were not a couple of guys with Enfields; they were a column of the Somali army, whose wages had gone into the warlord's pockets, and who needed money to buy food. They'd cross into Kenya, hose down a herd of elephants with jeep-mounted .51 cal MGs, collect the ivory, and hie back to Somalia.

The gamewardens may have started with a couple of guys with Enfields, but there's no artificial distinction between them and the rest of the officially-armed Kenyans. The gamewardens radioed in the anti-tank helicopters and the F-5E fighter bombers, who cleaned up the column, leaving smoking wreckage. (It wasn't an "offical" invasion, so the Kenyan media took the lead from Daniel Arap Moi (spelling?), Kenya's then-ruler.)

I'm therefore conditioned to (1) disbelieve stories emanating from African press accounts on poaching, and (2) believe poaching is bigger than a couple of guys with AK's.

I believe I'd give the PH the shot and just stay the hell out of it.

Jaywalker

There was an incident in Kenya in the 1980's where a large band of "shufta" came out of Somalia and shot up the game wardens HQ. The Enfields were the game wardens weapons, the shufta had a multitude of AKs. It was reported that the game wardens were hopelessly out-gunned.

Maybe this is the same incident as you mention or another one perhaps before your reported annihilation of the "army column".

Army units in Zimbabwe and Zambia and numerous other countries alledgedly regularly poach, perhaps to add to rations, but I am sure ivory in a colonels or general's pocket does not go astray.

quote:

Originally posted by C.Wathen:
I hope no one here thinks i'm too sick, but, I'd love to see what some of them big bore rounds would do to a human. Really like to see what the .577 T-Rex, .505 Gibbs, 500 N.E. would do.

I think that hope is misguided.

A good portion of Zim's senior PH's have done some time in the Bush War or time in National parks in the 80's during the Rino Wars. Some of their story's are mind blowing.

Sitting around the dinner table in camp last year (Chewore North, Zim) the PH sitting next to me was telling his friend (also a PH) that he and his Govt. game scout had heard some suspicious shooting (they knew who should have been hunting in the area) and they went to check it out. While sneaking up, they realized it was poachers that had shot an elephant.

They made a plan for the game scout to circle around and tell everyone something along the lines of "put your hands up" in the local language. When the game scout made his presence known, one of the poachers stood up with an AK-47. The PH shot the poacher with his 416 (I don't know if it was a Rem or Rigby).

This is a well known Zim PH. It seems like their policy is to shoot if the poachers are armed. In Chewore North, I believe most of the poachers are from Zambia and they cross the Zambezi river into Zim to do their poaching (mostly elephant).

As I mentioned before, when I asked my PH about poachers, he said if they are armed then to shoot as many as you can. After hearing this, I decided that my personal policy on the issue would be to hit the dirt and get the heck out of there. Only if someone in our party were in danger would I ever even contemplate shooting at a person.

Oh yeah, my PH also said that it would be VERY UNLIKELY for us to run across any poachers since they would probably hear us coming from a mile away in our deisel Landcruiser.


Tim

I have a buddy that hunted quite a bit in Botswana in the early 90s . . . he was in RSA on business and was bow-hunting plains game on private ranches where he had made contacts with landowners and PHs.

Anyway, he had several stories regarding poachers and landowner/PH attitudes towards them - on one property, the landowner "required" him to committ to arrowing any poacher should he see one - my friend "agreed" (but did not intend to follow though).

Another story involved a PH shooting an unarmed poacher in the chest with a "blunt" and having to step on the poacher's chest to pull the arrow out. The way my friend tells it, the PH was not "bragging" about shooting the poacher, but rather using the story to illustrate that a "blunt" arrow will still penetrate!

Troy

On my safair they had a big sign on the outside of the fence stating that the land was patrolled by armed guards. Seeing no such people in a few days we asked who these armed guards were. In essence my PH said the hunter were. Jut for grins we had a picture taken by the sign with me holding up mmy gun and dad holding my PH's.

7mm. guy

quote:

Originally posted by Kamo Gari:

quote:

Originally posted by C.Wathen:
I hope no one here thinks i'm too sick, but, I'd love to see what some of them big bore rounds would do to a human. Really like to see what the .577 T-Rex, .505 Gibbs, 500 N.E. would do.

I would too. How about shooting your wife or kid, and then posting pics?

First off I don't have a fucking wife or kid, if I did, 1st off I would marry a bitch who poaches(not that i think all women are bitches but if one does poach game then, shes a bitch) 2nd off if I had a kid, I'd be damned if I let him grow up to be a fucking poacher!

quote:

Originally posted by C.Wathen:

quote:

Originally posted by Kamo Gari:

quote:

Originally posted by C.Wathen:
I hope no one here thinks i'm too sick, but, I'd love to see what some of them big bore rounds would do to a human. Really like to see what the .577 T-Rex, .505 Gibbs, 500 N.E. would do.

I would too. How about shooting your wife or kid, and then posting pics?

First off I don't have a fucking wife or kid, if I did, 1st off I would marry a bitch who poaches(not that i think all women are bitches but if one does poach game then, shes a bitch) 2nd off if I had a kid, I'd be damned if I let him grow up to be a fucking poacher!

Did you forget to take a pill of some sort today?

A Namibian PH/Rancher friend of mine shot a guy on his ranch in 2004. Encountered him with some snares and the guy took off. He (intentionally) shot him in the leg (.240 Weatherby, Barnes X). He bandaged the guy up and drove him to town to the police station. He demanded the guy be charged and he was. Nothing bad happened to the PH/Rancher out of the deal.

The number of snares he's encountering on his place has dropped off.