Hi all I have been searching this forum for a while now and just decided to post. First I want to thank everybody for the tons of info recived on here.

I really want to know if you are outgunned in africa with a .375 H&H? Are you better off with a 416? I know this debate has gone on and on I want to hunt lion cape buff and hippo in africa someday so I would really like to know some of your opinions. Thank you in advance.

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Welcome, Andy.

You are not undergunned for lion if you use a proper 'soft'.
You may be undergunned for stopping a buff charge, but not hunting one that is broadside and unaware.
You are probably undergunned for hippo if you intend to take one on dry land with a shot to the body unless you use a solid that will penetrate in a straight line without deformation, riveting, or other 'failure'. You should be fine for sniping them while they're in the water.

I suggest you talk about it with the outfitter you book with at the time. Few will steer you away from a .375H&H until you start talking about elephants.

George

ANDY375HH,

Welcome to the forum.

No, you most certainly are not going to be undergunned with the 375 H&H.

As my friend ALF said, all you have to do is make sure you place your shots well.

And if the worst comes and a buffalo charges, brain him. That is the only sure way to stop him in his tracks.

I have hunted with a 416 Weatherby and a 416 Rigby, as well as a 375 H&H and our own 375/404. I have seen buffalo being shot with a 460 Weatherby as well. And I can assure you, I never saw that anyone of them has any advantage over the others.

Hit the buffalo well and you will find him dead within a 200 yards. With a marginal hit, you will chase him all day.

Regardless of caliber.

I'm not an expert, so take this for what it's worth. The 375 is the minimum for dangerous game, so the government finds it to be adequete. If you don't plan to hunt lion, hippo, and cape buffalo every trip over the pond the 375 should serve you well 99% of the time, there is that 1% in which you find yourself in a situation when there is no such thing as a big enough gun. If you can, why not get both calibers and use the one you like best. Your PH will want a 375 you shoot well over a 416 you can't. For a one gun safari the 375 is a great from duiker to elephant, it's also my choice, but should I go elephant hunting, I would get a 416. I would also take in to consideration the recoil of both calibers. I'm sure you'll get a lot more replies from the more experianced hunters. Hope this helped.
Sevens

I always wonder why the discussion of small bore versus big bore devolves into a marksmanship discussion.

Let's begin with the assumption that we will only use calibers that we can shoot well in the field.

With that in mind, is a smaller hole or a bigger hole better?

I would just point out that that Saeed has shot something like 80 or 100 buffalo. He is speaking from experience!

Ray Atkinson (whom I hope will post) has a huge amount of real buff experience too. I think he recommends the .416 (but then again he seems immune to recoil). However, I don't recall him ever saying that somebody with a .375 is undergunned, just that he prefers a .416.

A difference of opinion makes life interesting!

jpb -- who has a .375 but has never shot a buff so I won't comment!

... further ... is a larger wound channel preferable to a smaller? Is 5,000 or 6,000 foot pounds of energy more likely to subdue an animal than 4,000? Is 500 or 600 grains smashing into heavy bone more likely to shatter it than 300 grains? Do they make calibers larger than .375 and if so, why?

But Bell only used a 7mm Mauser, so I see no reason to even use a .375 H&H magnum.

You're on the right track now, Will. Remember:

"all you have to do is make sure you place your shots well."

Andy - As a visiting hunter you'll not be "undergunned" for buffalo or hippo. As Alf says, the .375 will always be the top all-rounder. But there are better buffalo and hippo cartridges.

The truth is, lots of folks can't shoot anything bigger than a .375 H&H without flinching. They might want to tell themselves that they can, but often their performances don't bear out those convictions. I do think that a .416 is better on big, tough stuff such as buffalo, but only if you can shoot it well.

If not, a .375 H&H will prove to be an ideal choice, and plenty of gun. It's proven itself to be such for ninety years, and with today's bullets and powders, it's better than ever before.

AD

I'm not undergunned with a .375 H&H, with proper bullets, I guess some are or at least imagine that they are..Most folks that challange the .375 just have not used it much...

I presently have and use a 375, 404, 416, 470, and I like them all equally, and have seen precious difference in the field between them. I believe once you break the 2100 FPS barrier with a bullet of 300 SD and a caliber of 338 or larger, then your in pretty good company if the bullet construction is right...I switch back and fourth on them, I have been known to waffle on the 375 depending on the day, but thats the fun part, wouldn't change that..

I know that many of the instances of charges and failure have been with the old 375 H&H, and that makes ones suspect to a point...But I believe virtually all of these failures were due to improper bullets, and with todays super premium bullets the 375 shines like the morning star, she owns the field...

Give me a 375 with a Bridger or GS Custom Flat Nose solids, backed by 350 gr. Woodlieghs PP and I would take on Ndulamathi and his 6 pals in a heartbeat...Give me a .470 to back her up and I'd take on Ben Ladin and his 40 theives.

If by something bigger you mean a 458Win I would say stick with the 375. I defer to more experienced hunters regarding elephants, but it will do for buffalo. For buffalo I think a 375 is better than a 458win.

500 Grains: "Let's begin with the assumption that we will only use calibers that we can shoot well in the field."

These are "my" truths:

The .375 H&H is my favorite of all cartridges and is adequate for buffalo.

The .416's are nearly as easy to shoot out to 150 yards or so and pack a lot more punch, close in, on buffalo.

A properly handloaded .458 Winchester is ideal buffalo medicine and, loaded with 450 grain bullets @ 2,200 to 2,250 fps, shoots as softly as do the .416's w/ 400 grains bullets @ 2,400.

The .458 Lott with 500 grain bullets @ 2,300 is clearly, a step up in recoil. Not for everyone, at least not for starters but game reaction on buffalo is markedly improved, similiar to that which we are accustomed to seeing on lesser game and especially so, with 450 grain bullets at 2,400+ fps.

The big 50's are another step up in recoil but not as great as some might imagine. Game reaction on buffalo is as it should be ... spectacular. If one can shoot the Lott, .450 Rigby or Dakota, or .460 he will likely handle any of the .50 calibers.

I switch back and fourth on them, I have been known to waffle on the 375 depending on the day, but thats the fun part, wouldn't change that..

I hope you don�t mind me asking but what does "waffle" mean?

Welcome Andy, This is a fine posting to start off with, and may all your questions be so astute! I have ventured to Africa only twice so far, but the .375 H&H was totally adequate for sport hunting of Cape Buff, Leopard and Lion, hippo and duiker. Bullet selection as has so well been pointed out by the above respondants is what matters AFTER PLACEMENT. It is easier to practice with a .375 than a 416 or 458, 470 class of stopper. Let the pro handle that part.

Nick said it all then added if you can shoot them for a finisher...Shoot the biggest you can...The older I get the more the big ones bother me..I am going to load my .470 down to 2000 FPS from now on, at 2245 FPS it mangled my bursitas, at 2000 I will get by much better I hope. I shot a 505 the other day and it damn near put me away. 2 years ago I could shoot a 505 all day at the bench, came home a little off balance but was still grinning, now I come home and whine....Getting old really sucks

Waffle is what most politicians do-keep changing their minds.

For my meager two cents worth, the .375 has worked fine for me on hippo, croc, ele, and buff, and somehow I have used my .300 Win Mag with equally good results on the cats (lion and leopard). To top it off, the .375 is a great plains game gun and works on the lighter stuff too. In fact, I have even shot a civet with the .375!

I think most people get hung up with needing a "stopper". It is probably more of a "want" than a "need" and I fully understand that want and the allure of a big bore. But for the average hunter, you cannot go wrong with a .375, assuming as all the famous gun writers tell us, we place our bullets where they belong.

Good Luck and Good Hunting.

Scott.

Gents read my post regarding my 416 Ruger problems. The best advice I got as always came form Allen Day who said "if the 416 doesn't get fixed in time for the buffalo hunt, just use your 375." He's 100% on the money. I was planning to take my 300 H&H for plains and my 416 for buffalo so now I'll just take the 375 as my second rifle and be covered all the way around. I have no problems taking game out to 300 yards with 300gr Swift Aframes or buffalos up close and personal. If, in the rare case I run into a problem and have to sort things out, my PH, John Sharp will be right there with his 470 double. What more can you ask for? jorge

Ray, you mentioned the Woodleigh PP bulltets. Have you had good luck with them? I used them in Namibia and was not very impressed (200gr. in 300 H&H). Accurate and decent BC but very erratic performance on game. Loaded to MV of 2850fps in my M70, bored right through a gemsbok at 220 yds with no expansion whatsoever, exit same size as entrance hole! I've gone back to the Weldcores.

Thank you everyboby for all of the great info you have given me.

My .318 and .404 I consider a Perfect African Pair for reasons of vintage, lineage and effectiveness. However, If I hadn't spent the money for them, I could just as easily saved a little longer and bought a good Birmingham .450 NE double to go with my beloved Lily Martel, the .375 Whitworth. If I had taken this hypothetical pair to Africa, only God knows how many hunts I would have gone on before I had any reason to unlimber the double. A good accurate .375, well shot, will do anything but save your butt during one of the dreaded "Oh sh*t!" moments and it will even do that if you can shot well enough. Yeah, I've had and still have bigger guns. I'd like a .505 some day. But they ain't needed.

/

Andy,
I've carried a .375 H&H on six of my seven safaris in four African countries. If I was undergunned I wish someone would have told me before now because the 50+ animals I've shot with that cartridge didn't clue me in!

If it can be accurately claimed that there are more DG failures with the .375 than with larger calibers.....it also be claimed this is because the .375 is used alot more on DG than the larger calibers due to it's easier shoot-ability. It's all in how satistics are looked at.

Alf,
I think I'd be more impressed if I felt one of us knew what your point was!

Also, a tasty breakfast item!

Nickudu,

But Kansas is whipping UI-Chicago. Everything else is irrelevant.

Also what John Kerry does (like most politicians).

Whilst on the subject of assumptions, we assume you will be going to africa as a "tourist" hunter accompanied by a ph. You will never be undergunned with a .375...in Africa or anywhere in the world. Let your PH carry his "big gun" for those "o shit" moments!

Most hippo hunting is done "sniping" at the brain and a .375 will "sink the ship" just as fast as any larger bore. Period! On Lion it is as good as any .416. Period. For buff, just as deadly as any .416, .470, .450, .460 or .500. Period.
The above all assuming :
Correct bullet placement, correct bullet selection.

Research, research research. This forum is one of the best for research into your upcoming African hunt!

Practice, practice, practice.

Even amongst the pro's there's no agreement on what to use and where to hit them. Sten Cedergren was a PH into his late 70's. He used many differant rifles at times. He and Brian Marsh also prefered shooting a charging buff in the V of the chest as the best place to stop them. He said, even if they dont crumble at the shot, they can only make a few more steps, and wont try to hook or stop if you jump out of the way and they go by.

Where the .375 will fail you on buffalo is on a frontal shot with a soft point bullet, they have been known on more than one ocassion to skid off to one side or the other and go under the shoulder and down the outside of the rib cage..This does not seem to happen with a solid, and does not happen with the 40 calibers...

No big deal as long as your aware, simply use a solid for frontal and going away shots..I have read this in Robertsons book, and other publications and I have witnessed it on two seperate ocassions, one with a 375 and one with a 9.3x74, so I am convienced that it can happen with the lighter calibers.

She is a grand old caliber.

Nick,
I don't think that my preference for a larger caliber for my own use is waffling on the question of whether the .375 is undergunned for someone else. I shot the .450 because I was impressed by the idea of absolutely numbing buffalo. It worked. I'm taking the .404 for the "cheerio" factor this time. Neither of these reasons has much to do with whether or not the .375 is somehow too small for African game. I don't think it is and I do know for damned sure that it's a whole bunch easier to get used to. Jim and I took a good six months of regular shooting to be confident with the big Rigby. I expect that it will take me about three to feel the same way about the .404. The .375? Let's go do some huntin' tomorrow! Andy wanted an opinion. Well, he got mine and your's and Ray's and Mac's and . . . Now all he has to do is decide who to believe.

Let's see if I have this correctly,

"A 600 N.E. in the guts is no better than a .375 H&H in the guts."

I don't think so, but I am writing that on a slip of paper and gluing it to my butt, of my stock!