I have a just had a decision laid on my desk and thought I'd see if ya'll could give me some guidence

I have a Winchester M70 Classic Safari in .375 H&H. I had my gunsmith take a look at it and we figured that it must have been built at 4.30pm on a Friday before a three-day weekend. Anyways, we now have the action trued up and I need to decide what to do with it.

Right now I have a .300H&H and a .338Winnie. I'm in the process of adding a .270Winnie. Most of my hunting will be N.America, but my dream hunt is Africa. Besides, shouldn't every gentleman (and gentlelady for Ann ) have a heavy rifle?

What would ya'll suggest I do with my action? I love the traditional calibers, but am open to something more practical and better suited to my needs. While I like the idea of a .375, I'm not sure I need one with my .338. Perhaps I should jump to the 400's. And if so, what caliber? My gunsmith has a .375 H&H barrel at his shop and my dad has a.416 Taylor barrel at home. Do I choose the .416Rem Mag or go all the way up to a .458 Lott?

I know my gunsmith will do a great job (see some of his handiwork here: http://www.serveroptions.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=38;t=001037#000008 ), now I just need a caliber. What do you all think?

And thanks in advance for the replies.



[ 06-16-2003, 21:48: Message edited by: JLHeard ]

How about the traditional .416 Rigby ??? I would have to say that this cartridge in my opinion is one of the most versatile cartridges out there as is the .375 H&H, but if you want a real stopper go with the .416 Rigby. But I hope you reload because ammo is expensive $100.00 + for 20 Cartridges. And this cartridge is considerd my many to be the "King of Africa" so if you ever get your chance to go to the Dark Continent you will be set. Good Day & have fun with your project!

Since you already have a 338, I might think to go up to the 416 rem for a heavy rifle. My thinking would be that you can use the 338 for all of what many people use their 375 for, a "heavy plains game" rifle. When the situation actually calls for a big bore, dangerous game, the 416 is a pretty good step up from the 338 or 375 and yet not too specialized like the lott. Of course I'm biased as the owner of a 416 rem model 70.

JL,

FWIW I would leave it in 375. Unless you intend to visit Africa regularly and shoot animals with nasty pointy teeth or big stompy hooves then the 375 H&H is all the gun you will need at the top end. Guaranteed you will get to shoot it more often because the bigger calibres DO knock the crap out of you and the 375 is about the limit for most people.

Shoot a 300gr Barnes X in it at 2400fps you will have a great plainsgame load.

Plus the 375 is cheaper to shoot relatively speaking.

Plus it will make a dandy sister gun to the 300H&H.

Pete

With what you already have, I see no reason for the 375 unless you just want one. The 338 will cover all of your N.A. game hunting just fine and for Africa I'dprefer something larger to use as a DGR.
The Rigby is out, due to the M70 action. I'd use the 416 Remington and be done with it. With lightweight bullets it will do all the 375 can and recoil will be no more. For buffalo and lion I would have some 400grs loaded.
The Lott is too specialized and has very heavy recoil. Not really needed unless you like to get real up close and personal with buffalo or elephant on a regular basis.

Here's another vote for the .416 RM!

I would go with the .375 H&H Mag. There is no better all around caliber. It will suffice for anything anywhere. You already have a .300 H&H Mag., so if you will be going to Africa after really heavy stuff--elephant, buffalo, hippo on land, or even white rhino in RSA--and want to hunt them as they should be hunted, up close and with iron sights, you can add a heavy rifle later when the time comes. And as for heavy rifles, since the .375 is already a superb medium bore, I say go for a true heavy. Skip the .400-.425 class entirely and go to a .458 Lott. It speaks with much more authority than the lesser calibers and is just about the ideal heavy caliber rifle. Nor does it kick too hard--I have one, and with a couple of recoil reducers in the stock, enough weight (11-12 lbs.) and a well designed straight combed stock, it's very nearly a pussycat. <br /><br />With these weapons, you will have the perfect, classic, 3 rifle African battery.

JLHeard
I would go with the 458 Lott. Then you have a true big bore when you go to Africa. In the mean time while hunting in the US the .458 is the best of the big bores to have.
Here is why:
Bullets: there are .458 bullets from 300grains to 500grains suitable for every velocity level and and animal size that do not cost an arm and a leg. Thus you can hunt everything form deer to bear and afford to practice a great deal. You can even shoot cast bullets and your barrel will last forever.
If you shoot your big bore enough it will become like second nature to you. It might even be your favorite rifle.
I would have a good set of express sights fited
[the more I use them the more I like them for close range hunting] and a scope in a good set of QD mounts.

[ 06-16-2003, 23:53: Message edited by: N E 450 No2 ]

I had this problem myself a while back. My good friend boha said no-go on the .416RM as the Rigby can do the same at a lower pressure. But I sort of wanted a Lott...and a .416...so I went with the .416 Rigby. Main reason: a classic African caliber and versatility.

I think you would enjoy and get more use out of the .375 H&H

I have a .375 H&H and a .416 Taylor and I like them both, but the .375 will get used more than the .416 ....my next big bore will be a .458 Lott!

JLHeard... you really cant go wrong with any of those decisions. Have you considered making it a 375 H&H and then trade/sell/ or rebarrel the 338?
If I didnt pick the 375 first, I would choose the 458 Lott as I am not a big 416 fan. I would also ream it to 2.85".

Send the Model 70 to John Dustin in Colorado (970 884 0393) and have him fit it for a swap barrel set. His barrels can be changed in the field. With a decent scope and mount set up, don't even need to resight on the range after barrel changes.

Using a left-hand Sako action, Dustin built me a swap barrel set with 264 Win Mag, 8mm Rem Mag, 416 Rem Mag, 458 Lott, and 470 Capstick barrels. On another Sako action, Dustin built a 6mm Rem, 6.5/06, a 280 Rem, and a 338/06. We are currently planning another rifle with 500 A-Square, 460 Wby, 378 Wby, and 7mm/378 Wby barrels. Then we'll do one more for the minis -- 17 Rem, 20 TNT, 223 Rem, 6x47, and 7mm TCU.

With a swap barrel system, you only have to declare one rifle in Africa and not the individual barrels. And the freight is a little lighter too.

I'd go with the 416 Rem...I see little need for anything larger myself..just a personal opinnion.

I'm with Ray and the others suggesting the .416 Rem Mag.

The 416 Rem Mag combined with the .338WM are a perfect African combo. The .375H&H is too close to the 338 WM.

On my next safari (Aug. 2004) I will be packing a .416 Rigby and a 338 WM.

Tim

.416 Remington is the logical choice.......

AD

I would go with either the .416 Rem Mag or the .458 lott. The lott can be down loaded alittle and ther are plenty of 45/70 bullets availabe for stuffing about with.

To Hammer: I�m building my .416 on a Sako action (60�s .375) and I�m wondering what kind of a magazine capacity you have with the larger calibers? My gunsmith said that 2+1 might be the limit.

Thanks to all who replied! After reading your thoughts and some searching the website, I've decided to put together a .416 Rem. While it doesn't have the nostagia of a .375, it makes much more sense considering my current battery. I also liked the ability to find factory ammo. Plus my dad is planning a .416 Taylor so we'll be able to use the same bullets (which will save money) And I still have my .300, so I wont be without a H&H

Thanks again!

[ 06-17-2003, 09:30: Message edited by: JLHeard ]

Buy Craig Bodington's book "Safari Rifles";

(i) It will provide a bunch of usefull info and views on your 416 and others (ii) It will prompt you to buy many more rifles (iii) It's a great read that is worth many "re-reads". (iv) A yearning for an African Safari will really manifest and take priority over all esle

Good luck with your choices, fun isn't it!!

[ 06-19-2003, 10:41: Message edited by: Peter V ]

.404 Jeffrey......

To Cewe,

My left-hand Sako holds 3 rounds of 375 H&H in the magazine plus one in the chamber.

To JLHeard As you see from the replys everyone has there own idea's. I happen to have all the rifles you are considering. I have a lot of shooting and reloading in all of them. Every one of them has there own whims and ideosyncrosies. I am with Ray. The 416Rem is a good choice and can be a lot of fun. In the end you are the only person that can decide what is right for you. Have fun.

Based on what you already have I will cast my vote for the 416 Rem Mag too. It's a fine DG rifle and can be used for plains game when DG is also on the menu .

JLHeard
Why is your dad building a 416 Taylor and not a Rem Mag, same as you?

Well, just in case this choice is too easy for you, I'll throw in a different opinion.
I think you should keep the H&H, and pair it with its little brother for whatever you'd been using your 338 for. Give the 338 to the smith for a .416-bore. There's time to get a 45 caliber yet, and you'll maybe even use the 416 around here, for bear say.
-Though you didn't mention what sort of work you wanted to do. Even paper shooting would be a blast with a 416.
The 416 Rem does 2400 at peak pressures, IIRC.
Have the follower worked on a little, and you can fit the same number of Jffery cases in there.
My personal choice would be the 416 Dakota, for it's common caliber (bullet selection), increased powder capacity (without decreased mag capacity) and it's non-belted case (I like the look.)
Brass is pricey, but with pressures maintained at a moderate level, 100 pcs could last you your lifetime.

Gentlemen

my favorite choice would be a 416 rigby, classic and big enough to get the peformance that is needed without any high pressures. That means annother action.

moat importanst is to be able to shoot with the rifle and not the matter of caliber a 404 or 416 would work just as good as a 45, but is more versatile

Generally speaking all would be fine choices. However, the 458 Lott is so specialized and geared towards the hunter who readily makes trips to Africa for buff and elephant. It is suited also to PHs who make a living saving their client's beacon if things go wrong. I see this chamber collecting dust in your safe, but I could be wrong.

The 375s are supurb and are undoubtedly the most versatile and useful worldwide.

Many wrestle with the thought of going big, but how big is big? The 416s are very useful in my opinion as a hunter's stopping rifle. While many PHs are using .458s, 475s and .510s, the average buffalo buster would be better served with a 375 or stretch to a 416 at the top.

If it were me, having a 338 Win in tow, I would opt for the 416, but not the Rem or the Rigby. I do not like belts on cases, they tend to prohibit really smooth feeding. This is not to say they are not smooth operators, but there are better cartridges feeding up the magazine and on the rails. THe Rigby is a fine and very deserving chamber, however without a full blown mag action, you are reduced one round, with two in magazine and one in the chamber. The Rem at least gives you three in the magazine and one in the chamber.

If you really want some 458 power out of a 416, you should chamber the 416 Dakota. This is an easy conversion on the Winchester 70 H&H action. The full length Jeffery 404 modified case provides 15% more capacity than the 416 Rem. Ballistically, it falls between what the Remington and the Weatherby generate. However, it forgoes the rim, headspaces off of the shoulder, feeds beautifully on an action like yours, and you still get three in the magazine with one in the chamber and it doesn't hurt near as bad as the Weatherby. It operates on lower pressures than the 416 Rem and can push the 400 grainers at 2500 fps with 3,000 ft-lbs of energy available at 300 yards, with only 10 inches of drop when zeroed at 200 yards. Essentially it can duplicate trajectories close to a 270 Win.

The Dakota cartridges may be some of the best thought out designs in the business. All are impressive, without punishing the shooter terribly (450 Dakota excluded).

Good luck with your choice,
rossi

JL That makes sense, but if ya'll hunt together a fair amount it would be handy to be able to use the same ammo.
Why not test the Nosler, the Swift and the Hornady 400 grainers on game. Then tell us the results

IMHO, go with the 416 unless you plan to shoot this gun a great deal. The difference in recoil of 458 Lott and the 416 Rem will be huge. This is not a challenge to your capability. You will simply be able to shoot the 416 very well sooner than the 458 Lott.

That said, I have a 458 Lott on the way, and am looking for cheap fodder for the hundreds of rounds of practice.

Safe Hunting,

Clint