I went to JNB Int on Saturday to pick up Jim. We got there at 09h00. His flight was due to land at09h50. There must have been at least 8 safari outfitters and PH's standing in the crowd waiting for clients. I eased up to one and asked him was he waiting for the Atlanta flight he says no his clients landed from Frankfurt at 8am and none had showed up yet!!!

So I figger Jim is going to be a while.

At 10h30 he strolls out, there's an official (white bloke) carrying his gun case.

I make like "WTF? You are so quick through?"

After greeting he explained he was met ON THE WALKWAY off the plane by an official (he did not say airport official, or customs or police) who took him straight to baggage claim where they picked up his gear then to the desk where they check the serial numbers on the rifles. They checked those numbers against his already done docco and hey he was through.

The secret behind this lot is to get ALL your paperwork done beforehand. This can only be done by a local agency like AIR2000. You send off notarised copies of ALL your docco like the 4457 and the hunting permissions etc to them 2 months before you leave. The only hassle with this is you have to have decided what guns you will be taking on the hunt. You can't pick up that sweet little searcy double on auction a week before and then bring it along.

Jim's documents (the official temporary import permit printed by the police) was signed off by the cops on the 4th May already.

I was quite pleased because we were on our way and knocking back a latte at the Petroport and we are thinking those bods from Frankfurt must still be in line.

We got to the farm and there was still daylight enough for Jim to do a recce and sight in his rifle.

So if you want to avoid the hassles of standing in line, use the local agency - it is not a bribe or a handout, they are providing a legitimate service getting your permit issued ahead of the time. In fact I am pretty sure the police would like to see it done this way for ALL hunters.

Hi Pete from the other Peter downunder in NZ

Wonderful that service you describe and yours as well.

BUT, call me a cynic and playing DEVILS advocate, there will (still be some) whom respond and make some excuse about not paying for a service that should be free and or other misc. reasons based upon principle and theory to not use a paid sevice, instead of listning to good sound advise based upon reality and past experience (-:

As I have said (many times before) and I must sound like a damn parrot ( excuse the pun ) my name being Peter Bird ... YOU can lead a horse to water BUT you cant make him drink ...

Thanks again Pete, you are a boomer ... have a wonderful hunt and 2005 seson in sunny SA

quote:

BUT, call me a cynic and playing DEVILS advocate, there will (still be some) whom respond and make some excuse about not paying for a service that should be free and or other misc. reasons based upon principle and theory to not use a paid sevice, instead of listing to good sound advise based upon reality and past experience (-:

Peter:

I hear you but I travel home twice a year and you want me to pay some private company a sum of money to clear my guns each time I pass through JHB international..... at what point does this service start costing me more than what the rifle is actually worth

Ok: I hear you; but here is the next step in this rediculous scenario!

Im a South African citizen and I wish to buy a gun, I go through all the hoops and the application gets turned down ( as it has), so now what do I do, I retain the services of one of those private firearms lawyers and after paying him a huge sum of money I finally get my licence.

Why can they not simply grant me a licence, why do I have to use a lawyer?

The cost of this excerecise is huge, ask me, more than a paid for some of the rifles in my collection !

So do I have to do that every 5 years for each of my arms? when relicencing has to take place.... what is the cost going to be, more than what the guns are worth.

At a fee of SAR 800 ( conservative) per application with a lawyer a collection of 100 rifles will cost you SAR 80,000 every 5 years to licence?

Now this clearing service may be a huge convenience to some visitor hunter who comes over on his dream safari and he is earning Dollars.

It is pushing me a citizen who earns rands to the back of the line and you have to cough up each time you wish to fly with guns it simply becomes rude !

Many of my gun collecting friends and some have of the most known and sought after Mauser collections in the world are contemplating parting with their collections because of this type of BS.

This is BS and no matter how you argue it it stinks !

Alf,

I think you are flying off the handle for the wrong thing. No one is asking anything of you, provided you are prepared to wait and stand in line with everyone else then it is all free....

Re-licencing is a whole 'nuther issue. Any case how does that affect you, you live in Canada? You should have exported your guns LONG ago.

We are talking about a company that pre-processes your import permit a month ahead of the date of arrival so that you don't have to stand in queue waiting to have the documentation checked and getting the details taken down and put on your permit. 90% of the time wasted in the process is caused by uninformed clients who have not been told by their outfitters what is required of them on arrival. Sure some time and motion and process studies could be done on the police process crew as well, but I am sure there is huge frustration when you as a savvy hunter have all the stuff you need and you are held up by a non-english speaking Spaniard who thought that the letter inviting him to hunt was "no muy important" (or however you'd say that in Spanish)

By a extension of reasoning there is no reason why an outfitter cannot perform exactly what AIR2000 or Optima are doing. Which is to gather documentation and submit it on your behalf to the police ahead of the time and obtain a temporary import permit. AIR 2000 are clearly identifying their clients in the terminal building and short circuiting them through the time consuming "waiting and filling out" stage directly to the comparatively quick "check the papers against the hardware" stage.

For my part if I were a visitor I would demand that the local outfitter performs this service for me. He sits with most of the documentation anyway, all you are supplying is the 4457 customs declaration. Remember he generates the contract, the invite letter, the location etc etc. Then we walks into the local Firearm office (NOT Jhb Int) and obtains the paperwork right there and then. The day he picks you up, he will have to have entered into some sort of access agreement with customs to meet you in the arrivals hall so he can personally shepherd you through the process. Much as how AIR2000 are doing.


If you, as a South African Citizen, can get one of your relatives to do this for you as a favour then the service is of course free, but if you want me or anyone else to do it for you then we are of course going to charge you for the service. You could also submit your documentation directly to the police ahead of the time, but who knows how "urgently" your application will be dealt with as opposed to an agent pitching up at the Firearm Control Office and handling it personally?

Ask any of the outfitters who have been dealing with the Botswana authorities for import permits. They have to be applied for up front, way ahead of the clients arrival. So it is all transparent to the client because he arrives with all the papers in hand, or he is met at the airport with them and he just flies through customs. We are actually fortunate in SA that the documentation does not have to be done in advance, there are just certain conditions that have to be met and documents that must be available so it can be done on arrival.

The major hassle is the waiting. On any flight inbound from America there are at least 25-30 hunters landing in one go. The police don't man up enough checking stations, so you are going to get a bottleneck.

Ask any of the hunters who arrive in the evening they usually just breeze thru as there are few hunters on the daylight flights, providing they have all their stuff.

Sorry I've gone off the rails and repeated myself.

Cheers

pete

My experience in JHB was that if the Goober, excuse me, hunter, gets off the plane, goes to the luggage carousel, stands around listening to the hired help telling you to wait so that they can carry your luggage for you to check your guns in, you will find yourself in one Hell of a line, because they don't move towards check-in until they have as many Goobers, excuse me, hunters, in tow as possible.

It took me just until my bags and gun rolled out to see how this game was being played. I grabbed my stuff and headed for check-in. I was second in line. When I was done and gone the line was about 40 very confused looking Goobers, excuse me, hunters long.

Simply don't stand there like sheep waiting to be sheared. Get your shit, and git.

If you are so unprepared and confused that you don't know what to do, tape a US$20 to your forehead and someone will definitely help you.

quote:

Originally posted by Pete Millan:
snip...
The secret behind this lot is to get ALL your paperwork done beforehand. This can only be done by a local agency like AIR2000. You send off notarised copies of ALL your docco like the 4457 and the hunting permissions etc to them 2 months before you leave.

Pete,

I am hoping that this is not the case. In looking at the SAPS website, they note that you can send in your paperwork to them at least 25 days ahead of arrival for permitting. This would lead one to belief that it does not require a "service firm" to accomplish this process. Clearly, the service firm could screen the documents and catch any mistakes or omissions in the paperwork before forwarding to the SAPS. In my recent rate inquiry to Air2000, they quoted R750 for the service - seems a bit expensive to me.

Has anyone tried to get an advanced temporary import permit directly from SAPS prior to arriving in SA?

Doug

In theory it shouldn't be difficult. In reality the advance permits are issued by the Central Firearms Registry in Pretoria.........as they have a HUGE and ever increasing backlog of work and very limited staff to do that work and as the post from RSA to elsewhere in the world can be a little unreliable you can really forget the DIY option.

They took 7 months to issue my latest firearms permit and all they had to do was check my fingerprints on their computer and then print the permit......I'd supplied them with EVERYTHING else.

As a good friend says "TAB" That's Africa Bwana!

quote:

Sorry I've gone off the rails and repeated myself.

Hey Pete, ( sorry RE-PEAT) so now you and I are both are parrots

Seriously though,

So far ( thankfully) this thread has been a good insight with ( non heated debate ) and ideas ...

I can understand & sympathise with Alf, it is a right pain but we have all been around now long enough to know that red tape and hassles in AFRICA generally are not going to go away soon so we need to all become more street wise and start using I heads instead of our hearts. Alf you have a special situation that unfortunately I dont have any good answers to ...

If we think the average JO BLOW can get the authorities to PULL FINGER then I am afraid they are wrong. Collectively even strong boidies like SAGA and to a lesser degree PHASA are pissing in the wind when trying to get action to satisfy us all. That is why I like the overview by Pete Millan a lot.

Another poster Kensco from India actually made an excellent point.

quote:

Simply don't stand there like sheep waiting to be sheared. Get your shit, and git.

If you are so unprepared and confused that you don't know what to do, tape a US$20 to your forehead and someone will definitely help you.

Obviously coming from India he will have a lot more experience with crowds and jostling for position than most of us living in the wide open spaces, so we all can learn a lesson from that statement.

In summary I still believe that if we get our ducks lined up first, contract a GOOOD T/A pay a small fee to a meet and greet CO. and let someone do the donkey work on our behalf that is the best solution /// if someone has a better solution lets hear it please so we can all sleep easier ...

JUST out of INTEREST ///

In Zambia the way it works is ....

1) WE the Outfitter or Ranch owner as the case may be has to FIRST register with ZAWA and (of cource) pay a fee to get registered

2) Once registered, ZAWA then will duly provides the local POLICE authority in Lusaka with each individual companies registration details

3) WE the Outfitter/Rancher then has to get each individual clients rifle/passport details (in advance) and lodge the formal application with the POLICE in Lusaka whom in due cource issue the temp import export permit to us the Outfitter

4) WE have to then get the (issued permit) to the border entry port at Livingstone or Lusaka as applicable in time for the clients arrival with rifles, so we need to have a meet and greet person or company waiting with the permit at the entry border

Now although it is a (long drawn out process) which we must go through in advance it seems to work well. I wonder if that might be on the cards for SA to consider sometime in the future ??

Peter

Well, I guess I'm one of the horses that you can't make drink. Question:
Are there two lines at the Joburg SAP office now? One for those with their papers in order and another for those without their papers in order?
Or does the folks with their preapproved papers go to the front of the line?
Thanks.

TJ,

There is a queue for those with their documentation but no Temporary import permit filled out by the cops. This is the long queue. From their they move to a desk where the guns are checked against the paperwork. This takes as much time as it takes to open the guncase, check the serial numbers against the permit close case and bid you farewell. So that queue is non-existent and you would not be pushing in front. So those with the pre-filled in temporary import permit go straight to that queue.

I just went through the process at JHB. The people using the services moved no faster than those of us without the service. We all moved in the same log line. Now the ladies for the services were a bit pushyer trying to get up in line faster. But the clients were still taken into the office at the same rate as us. The computers were down on arrival so the SAP had to do all the forms by hand. They checked all the guns and looked at all the ammo.

A question to the US members:

How long time will it take to get ones rifle and ammo trough, say JFK Air Port when arriving from South Africa or Europe?

Or is it possible at all

Husky

Kensco- What kind of tape works best?

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

They took 7 months to issue my latest firearms permit and all they had to do was check my fingerprints on their computer and then print the permit......I'd supplied them with EVERYTHING else.

quote:

Kensco- What kind of tape works best?

RED TAPE ( sorry ) I could not miss a chance at jumping in on that question (-:

I was young and STUPID once upon a time, now I am OLD and stupid ... Thats what tooooooo many years in the African SUN does to one's soul

Peter

Husky:
Don't know. Probably longer than it takes to get through Joburg. I'm sure our new laws are as bad or worse than R.S.A. But, I ain't gonna hunt in the U.S.A.

TJ
I have relaitves in the Washington State, south of Tacoma. One of my relatives hunts a lot there. I think it is Whitetail and Elk?

If i would go hunting with him -it would be nice to bring my own rifles!

Husky