At what point does recoil become an issue with detached retinas? Several years ago, I had RK surgery back before they used lasers. They used the old Gillette Blue Blade on my eyes. I see 20/20 out of both eyes, however, have been cautioned that a "blow to the head or something that strikes my eye hard" could detach retinas - so whenever I barefoot waterski now, I have to wear goggles. I also wear clear Oakley's when shooting. I've often wondered if shooting a hard-kicking (416+) rifle might not be a wise thing for me to do. Has anyone heard of anyone getting detached retinas from shooting? Jeff

Jeff,

My father partially (50%) detached a retina pull-starting a lawnmower, which was repaired with laser surgery. His doctor told him not to shoot any heavy-kicking guns, and he's been using my 243 Winchester ever since, no problems lately.

I think some people are more prone to this injury than others, so there is not a specific "threshold" to avoid. "Floaters" or other eye problems may indicate a predisposition to this problem, Dad had bad floaters for years.

I think that I recall in a thread a while back that one of the forum members did detach a retina shooting a heavy kicker, but don't remember specifics.

I don't think safety glasses/goggles are going to have any affect related to detached retinas, it is influenced by abrupt motion of the head.

You only have one pair of eyes, have to take good care of them....

Happy New Year, Bill

Ngrumba - This happened to a friend who was shooting a .338. He developed a headache and blurred vision in one eye. An eye surgeon confirmed a small tear/detached retina with slight hemorrhaging. He fortunately opted for laser surgery and was good as new.

Some folks are more susceptible to DR than others. As a result, there does not seem to be a universal threshold for recoil. Anytime you are shooting a heavy recoiling rifle and develop blurred vision, immediately seek medical attention. This will not go away by itself. The sooner you get to a doctor, the less likely there will be any long term damage.

Your best bet is to seek the medical advice of an eye surgeon before you push the envelope. Also, get regular eye exams. The can spot a potential problem before you damage the retina.

[ 01-01-2003, 02:51: Message edited by: Zero Drift ]

I have also heard that the first indication may be seeing bright spots that are not there.

Had a detatched retina in the right eye in July of 1997, saw tunnel vision immediately, and the circumfrence looked like green vertigre on brass cases. Stopped in doctors office same day, and he sent me to eye specialist, operated on before noon next day. Got a scelera buckle around the eye ball to keep the fluid pressure against the retina. A week later seen the "1000 points of light"that Daddy BUSH was talking about. Drove straight to the eye specialiast after work, in six minutes he repaired the tears in the left retina. I shot a cowboy shoot the next weekend with no ill effects. I know I can endure the recoil or a 45/70 Marlin CB with Hogslammers, and can take a 12 ga, we will soon see if I can endure the .375H&H in a Ruger#1, with a Kick EEZ 1&1/4" pad on it. Course there are always the dead mules as well if needed.
Do I give up what I love so much, no, but I will proceed cautiously.
One side bar, now I no longer have cross eye dominance, and shoot better than I have in years. And can keep both eyes open as well.

SP

I am concerned about this as well. A few years ago John Wooters had a detached retina and thats the last I heard of him.

I asked my ophtalmologist about shooting and he dismissed it. I am not sure that he understands and I am going to bring it up again.

The issue of detached retinas has been removed for me because of neck problems. About 6 weeks ago it was looking like I was about to change my hand handle to Mike17 but with some improvements (via diet) I think I can be Mike7mm or perhaps Mike30.

In my insurance business the majority of my clients are medcial specialists, including eye people.

As has been mentioned on this thread some people are pre disposed to the detached retina and that is what I have been told.

RAB is a doctor and he agreed with my assessment that probabaly above the 375 H&H is where trouble would start for someone pre disposed to deatched retina.

There are a couple of things in my opinion to keep in mind with recoil and retina and also neck.

Forget perceived recoil. That is meaningless. A 300 Winchester will make lots of sharp noise and jump about but it simply does not drive a bag of lead shot back as far as a 375. In short, a 9 pound 375 is travelling faster when it hits you than a 9 pound 300 Winchester. Remember that it is 375s, 458s etc that have barrel recoil lugs, cross bolts and bust up scopes, not 300 Winchesters/Wbys/Ultras or 7mm STWs.

Weatherby style stocks, that is those where the centre of the butt is well below the axis of the bore transfer more of the rifles velocity into an upward motion. That is a gain for both retina and neck. I know for a fact because I have done it, that a Ruger Number 1 in 458 will drive a bag of lead shot back further than will a Japanese 378 Wby. Of course as some here will be aware from experience, the Japanese 378 has far more violence to fire (perceived recoil) than the Ruger 1 in 458, but your retinas and neck would disagree.

Shotguns are also worth looking at as a basis for "safe" recoil because so many people shoot them and also shoot lots of shots. In addition, the offhand position allows more whiplash to take place. With all the people who shoot 12 guage world wide, it is reasonable to say that the 12 guage with the most widely used loads which I guess would be clay targets (I am not a shotgun shooter), is below the problem area, other wise we would be seeing lots of detached retinas.

Mike

[ 01-01-2003, 07:21: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

Wow, excellent thread. Very informative.

I've been wondering about the same issue regarding my neck. A lady ran broadside into my car (with me in it) a few years ago and I've had neck pains ever since. Xrays revealed a "slightly bulged disc" in my neck.

I have found that if I make a sudden movement just so so with my neck, that it hurts and may hurt for a day or two. So, I've had some serious concerns about recoil and a neck problem ever since. I have shot stuff like .308 and 270 extensively since then with no ill effect...but does anyone want to guess at what caliber I might do some serious damage?

Anyone ever done permanent damage to their neck with recoil? It would sure seem possible to me.

An interesting thread.

My problem is a C5/C6 situation that I'm not relishing dealing with. Age sucks. And, truthfully, I think at least some of this problem is the result of shooting the big boomers I have.

Did I mention age sucks?

Russ

[ 01-01-2003, 08:11: Message edited by: Russell E. Taylor ]

Recoil management is best if you don't allow your body to absorb all the force. Keep your spine erect, shoulders back and head up. This allows your body to flex at the waist under recoil. If you hunch forward with your head down, your body cannot flex and you absorb all the recoil.

Use a stock with a pad below the boreline, such as on a Monte Carlo or Hog's Back. This will allow the muzzle to pivot upwards, much like a single action revolver pivots in your hand.

Most importantly, follow the same methods when shooting from the bench. Use a lower seat or a higher rest so that from the waist up you are duplicating the standing position. You will be amazed at how tolerable big bores are from the bench.

KurtC

What you describe increases whiplash, although for some shooters it may seem easier to shoot that way.

The most comforatbe and least damaging way for me to shoot a 375 is prone, not prone as like a range shooter, but prone with the rifle forend on a front rest and sand bag under the butt. In other words it is like having a bench that is big enough to lie on, if you know what I mean.

Does not hurt the shoulder because the recoil hits totally different to being prone on your elbows like a range shooter. There is zero whiplash.

Sitting very erect at a bench or putting a rifle on a sand bag on the roof of a car will give you big whiplash with the big kickers.

But it also depends a bit on the make up of shoulder. Some people get lots of shoulder pain and others do not.

Mike

Russell, I mispoke...it was an MRI they did on my neck...the proceedure where they load you into this torpedo tube contraption? They did that because I was having some shoulder pain and numbness down left arm. That's when they found this little cuty...and decided I needed a bone spur taken out of my left shoulder.

Did I agree with you about age sucking?

Detached retinas (retinae ;-) are not the result or sequelae of RK/PRK/Lasik or any other other corrective lens procedure. It is a different area of the eye, and though you can make inferences, there are no clear connections. The lens upon which the surgery is performed is on the absolute front surface of the eye, and the retina is on the absolute back. Consider the anatomy.

Mike,
As I recall, whiplash (lawyer term) occurs when you get an unexpected jolt. As long as you use your neck muscles to keep your head from jerking, there should be no risk. I think the biggest mistake we make is trying to keep the rifle from moving so that we can get a quick follow up shot. I figure that second shot doesn't matter if the first one leaves me parylized or blind. I try to avoid most of the "steady hold" sniping principals when shooting big bores. But my experience is limited to the .404 and the .416 Rem Mag. I have no intention of shooting anything larger from a bench.

Russell, I agree 100 %. The idea of ANY sort of proceedure being done on my neck makes me want to pee down both legs. I'm gonna have to have a LOT more problems than I do now.

I don't HAVE to shoot the big guns. I don't HAVE to do a lot of things, but I sure like being able to walk to the kitchen table or bathroom.

No spinal surgery for this kid!

You guys are all making good points above.

Ngrumba,
The radial keratotomy (RK) surgery history suggests protecting the cornea from your barefoot water ski spray with glasses/goggles as the RK may have weakened the cornea regarding a direct blow to the cornea.

The fact that it (RK) was done suggests that likely high myopia (severe near sightedness) needed to be corrected. This usually means an oblong eye ball that is itself a predisposer to retinal detachment (RD).

Age is a risk factor for RD. Tissues just get less elastic and tear easier as we get senile. Poor nutrition and connective tisue disorders such as Marfan Syndrome ... they are prone to lens dislocations, etc., ...

RD starts as a tear in the retina, maybe just a pinhole. Find those and tack them down with a laser weld to prevent the retinal tear enlarging and the retina detaching like a curtain falling. Regular eye exams, dilated and by the specialist, either optometrist or ophthalmologist (MD or DO), any worth their salt.

Everybody has some vitreous floaters. It is just the sudden shower of floaters or troublesome severity of them or the scintillating scotoma/flashing lights or visual acuity changes that need to be checked out. They may signal a retinal tear or incipient detachment, but there are other causes.

It is hard to pin down a vitreoretinal surgeon on suggesting a risky rifle recoil level, as the studies have not been done regarding inducing retinal detachment, and people are so different in their susceptibility.

Mike375,
Your suggestion, to paraphrase, of 375 H&H recoil in an average weight rifle generally being safe is probably as good as it gets, but there are no absolutes, everything is relative, etc.

KurtC,
I cannot disagree with you. My experience agrees. However, I often use a bag of shot and the "benchtop prone" method of Mike 375 for the preliminaries and then shift to your technique for the final touches at testing and adjusting zero. At the range I use a Past Magnum pad to protect my shoulder, if not the bag of shot/sand bag. And always a good soft pad for the big boomers at the range or in the field. The shock absorbing padding and weight will slow down the acceleration and snapping of the head and neck, as does the rolling with the blow of the entire upper body when the firmly gripped rifle and shoulder are all locked up as a unit, adding the upper body weight to the rifle and not letting it get a run at the shoulder. Avoiding scope bite on the forehead yet not letting the head snap back too violently nor the cheek get punched with the rifle is where the fit of the stock, eye relief, and the shooting technique come in. Then it all comes together in the field or with offhand practice and the proper mind set when zeroed: no pain. A man has got to know his limitations. Pay the piper his due respect, now or later.

I think pushups and range of motion exercises for the shoulder should be regular for the big bore shooters to keep their resistance to recoil enhanced, especially as we get (sniff, whimper) senile.

Pecos45, Russell, and Mike375,
Don't get cut on until you just have to. You will know when.

There are no absolutes, everything is relative, it depends, proceed at your own risk. Know your limitations.

[ 01-01-2003, 13:10: Message edited by: DaggaRon ]

Interesting.

Technique will come to play in some fashion when the push becomes really big.

Head position: I have been told to crawl up on the stock to prevent the "whip" and I have also been told to keep my head sightly back as the rifle will then use energy to punch back and slow down before the "whip" of the head comes into play.

Shoulders: I know with the easy kicking stuff I keep the right elbow out and parallel to the ground. That becomes a problem over 75 ft. lbs. I watch the Mark Sullivan flicks (I DO have other flicks too, I just had to mention his name) where he fires his .500, .577 and lastly his .600, all show him pulling in the elbow to form a "pad". I see this in other African hunting flicks when people are using heavy rifles.

Personally I have found that by keeping the head slightly back, relaxed and forming a pad with my pectoral and anterior deltoid muscle and holding the forearm tighly with my left hand completely encircling the stock mitigates recoil on my .500 to a tolerable level. I found crawling the stock gave me headaches and a couple of times (no joke) left me feeling punch drunk. I haven't been foolish enough to hold my elbow parallel to the ground, I do not want to dislocate my shoulder.

What are your techniques? What did you find works and does not work?

Roger,

From your posting:

Head position: I have been told to crawl up on the stock to prevent the "whip"

I agree with that.

Mike

RAB

In Australia the general word is that if they open your head, chest or neck/back....

The one that would scare me the most is being on the heart/lung machine.

As to shooting, I do believe that neck is more likely to be the problem than detached retina. I also believe that it will be the 375 level of recoil that will set the problem in motion, not the 460s etc.

Mike

Check with your opthalmologist. Mine told me that I would suffer retinal detachment only if I held the .375H&H stock to my head when I fired it.

targshooter,
No guarantees of that either. What about boxers? Nothing definitive can be said here, one way or the other. It depends, there are no absolutes, everything is relative, yada yada yada, ... We have rehashed this for the umpteenth time over the last several years, for the newbies. I think it is safe to say that a 9 pound 577 Tyrannosaur with full power loads should be avoided.

DaggaRon, I think the boxer paralell pretty much sums it up and makes sense to me. I shoot my 11 lb 416wby and I know my head isn't getting smacked like that. Great point.

I keep my elbow in tight, the gun in tight just like Roger said basically with my shoulder rolled forward and move with the gun pretty stiffly like DaggaRon said too, making my upper body the rest of the gun weight so to speak. It doesn't much matter what position I'm in it just has to be held tight and locked in most of all.

I did have a bout at the bench one week where the damn think was putting a kink right in between my spine and right shoulderblade somethin fierce. After about 5 or six shots I all but yelled out in pain each time I fired it. After ten rounds I had to put it down, it was just too much. Pinched a nerve or something. I went back after a couple days and went home again wimpering once more, this time it hurt after the first shot, so I packed it up and let it heal a while. I don't know if it was my position or what but I tried it again after a couple weeks and I was fine again. Never had that pain again since.

Ngrumba,

My answer: Don't shoot the .416.

Read what Mike 375 and DaggaRon say very carefully. I believe that they know what they are talking about.

I happen to very myopic (presumably long eyeball) and therefore, I am told, more likely to suffer retinal detachment or, with age, separation of the vitreous humor from the retina. I am now approaching middle age (57). Nearly a year ago, I started sometimes seeing flashes in the periphery of my left-eye vision with head movement. I also gained one modest-sized floater in my left eye. This was maybe a week or so after the last time I had fired my new .416 (had and have about eighty rounds through it.) My ophthalmologist examined my retina very thoroughly, even more so than the optometrist before him. There was no evidence of a tear. However, he diagnosed incipient separation of the vitreous humor from the retina, called it common at my age and even more common for myopics like me. On prodding, he recommended laying off the .416 until the separation was complete, which I don't believe it is yet, although he expected it to be within a few months. Some months later, I got the same thing in my right eye, but without the floater, within a day or two of a strenuous game of volleyball!

Do I think the .416 caused it? Probably not, but I'm not sure. I won't be firing it until the flashes go away, which will hint that separation is complete (so that the vitreous humor won't be pulling on the retina and threatening to tear it).

In your case, it just seems to be unnecessary violence to a really useful part of the body. How about a 10.5 pound .375 H&H? Ask Saeed what he hasn't killed with a .375.

Just my $.02. Your choice.

Recono,

I am 54 have worn glasses for distance since before I was 20. Although not very strong glasses and my glasses have not really changed since I was about 30.

However, in the last 10 years or so I need to take the glasses of to read.

Now for something weird. I am a very big tea drinker, 20 cups a day and more. sometimes I muck about with diet and that often involves me drastically reducing tea intake and shifting to a couple of cups of black tea anda couple with skim mild and what we call Equal, aspartame for sweetnees.

Usually within 3 days I can then read with my glasses on. I don't know whether it is cutting down milk or something else I am changing, but it happens every time!!!

Without glasses I can read where you enter this post from 6 inches quite easily.

Mike

Mike,

I suspect that what you are experiencing has to do with the muscles that focus the eye, and that it is similar to what I sometimes notice after one or two drinks (one or two 12-oz beers or equivalent). With that amount of alcohol my distant vsion improves slightly. I don't really know, but I believe that it relaxes muscles which convexify the lens for close vision, although I suppose it is possible that it somehow strengthens the effort of the opposing muscles to flatten the lens for distant vision.

I think the only reason I don't always notice this effect is that I don't always drink outdoors, where I can notice distant vision.

??

Recono

This is something I've been thinking about recently, but for other reasons.

Last spring I developed pain in my right shoulder. Started lifting some light weights in the summer, and everything cleared up. Continued lifting weights.

Then, in November, while deer hunting the pain came back so bad that I had trouble sleeping at night. When I try to lift my right arm, it crunches in the shoulder, and I get major pain in my bicep.

Went to the dr. and he said it's inflammation around the rotator cuff, and the pain in the bicep is transference pain. Gave me a strong anti-inflammatory, but had to go off them a week later when I had a bad reaction and developed hives.

So now, I'm in physiotherapy. Twice a week for the last 3 weeks, and I'm about 80%. Still sore at night and have trouble sleeping on that side.

Anyway, I shoot a .458 WM and a .375 H&H. Never had any problems with recoil. I shoot in shirtsleeves and have not had any pain while shooting, or after.

I did have an 8mm Rem. Mag a couple of years ago that beat the snot out of me, plus a .50 cal BP that did the same, due to poor stock design. But I've been told that both happened so long ago as not to contribute to my problem now.

So, could it be the big bores, even though they don't bother me while shooting, or after?? I'm not about to give them up!!

Hello Jeff,

I do wear, and recommend that everyone wear, eye protection during shooting, I just don't think that they will have any influence re: DR in the shooting environment. They will, however, protect your eyes from numerous other possible injuries. My Gargoyles saved a ladyfriend from getting numerous stitches around her eye when she shot my 338WM one time, the eyepiece of the scope was trashed, and the glasses wear a reminder of the event (they were still serviceable).

At the speeds that barefoot water skiing is done, I would think you could do some very serious eye damage if you didn't protect those eyes!

Bill

Recono,

I think you are probably right with that.

Here is another one for you.

I am in the selling business, both doing it and also train others.

At its most basic level people either tend to buy concepts or details. The conceptual buyer usually expends all his buying energy on perhaps one or two features. The other bloke tends to look at far more features or pro and cons but less detail for each feature.

Now where this can be very important is in the type of documentation you give somone.

Let us say we have a written comparison between two products that is 5 pages long or more. Comaprison A goes into great detail on a couple of features and Comaprison B covers 11 features but of course with much less detail on each feature.

If the conceptual buyer who wants lots of detail on a couple of features gets Comparison B, he will come back wanting more information. Same deal if the many features buyer gets Comparison A.

The salesman will tend to present written material in a manner which in fact suits his way of buying things.

The bottom line with all this is that if the peson has the wrong product comparison the chances of them buying a greatly reduced. So I tried to find some way of establishing very quickly which way a person would be and this is what I came up with and the reasons why and it seems to be rasonably accurate. Let me know what you think.

Firstly, if the peson needed glasses for long distance they were more likely to concentrate on only a couple of features but in great detail. Their interests also seem to be few but they go right into those few interests. The person who needed reading glasses, especially in his mid 40s to 50s, was likely to be the opposite.

Now my theory is the muscles in the eye are like other muscles and respond to exercise. The bloke who needs the glasses for long distance tends to live mostly in a zone that is only a few feet around him. When he reads he concentrates a lot. He is more likely to read factual material rather than novels etc. Thus his eyes get the exercise for close range. If he goes to a restaurant that he has not been to for 12 months he notices changes on the table menu whereas the other bloke notices changes on the menu that is on the board. In other words the bloke that only needs the reading glasses has a life that is oberved at a greater disatnce. In other words, he takes in more scenery but less detail so his eyes don't get the close range exercise.

The other issue that we found was that people who tend to use a lot of electronic equipment were also big on little detail but lots of features or lots of activities.

Thus the person like myself who can write data base programs is lost when it comes to mobile phones and other electronic gadgets and in addition I have no interest etc.

I thought this thread was now long enough to get off topic

Mike

DaggaRon came to our rescue again. Even though this thread has been on once or more, its darn important. Not just shooters have to worry, we had a fellow at work who had detached retinas in both eyes from jogging on hard pavement. I would guess if he had been a shooter he would have been in trouble early.
Dr. Ron covered all the basics and the dissertation on impact recoil reduction to the head was excellent. I like that part because when I got my .416 some years ago, I was getting beat up. A sore cheek and headaches. To add to this, floaters were noticed. Well the optometrist gave me a clean bill of health and I experimented with different hold patterns for bench shooting including all the protection that was mentioned. I learned to lock the rifle to my shoulder first and to only softly put my cheek on the stock. Also learned the value of heavy rifles and even my .375 weighs over 10 lbs (bull barrel) and shoots like a pussy cat. My test rifle is the Wea 460, which I feel If it can be shot without pain or discomfort, all the rest up to the .500's are not too much a problem.

My advice, if your big bore gives you whiplash or headaches, then your rifle stock, position, and rifle weight should be reevaluated before trouble starts. Shooting should be fairly painless, not getting hammered . Never did subscribe to the crowd who like big bore calibers on light rifles, because they are easy to carry, of course I'm not a goat hunter either .

Mike,

In short, I agree. I think that myopia is lot more environmental than hereditary, having had the opportunity to observe the black-hatted set that you may be familiar with. In addition, even a person with a hereditary condition may tend to pick pursuits or styles where the hereditary trait is not a disadvantage.

There are plenty of exceptions, of course, but your rule not only sounds like a good general rule, apparently you have actually observed it to bde the case.

Interesting!

Lots of info I hadn't even thought about. Now that I am about to embark on buliding my first smokeless big bore I will lean toward more weight.

Russell make sure you go and talk to a Neurosurgeon before any thing else with the back.
I have had the L-4,5,6 removed and the C-5,6 are crushed due to rolling a patrol car a few years ago.