In the list having indegenous zambian black phs from within and nearby areas to GMAs will guide local hunters for probably less than half the ph fees charged for international hunters. Also this creates jobs for local people and will surely be a step towards curbing abuses . Obvuiosly if this program is put in place and right measures taken it will benefit wildlife.

quote:

The phs for resident hunters are to prevent abuses by this group.

Don't worry I've been following the conversation and I'm not backing off on what I said either.

The majority are what they are and the minority are the ones that fall into Steve's category, few and far between.

Since when and where have PHs become nannies .... they went through the ropes ... you know, Apprenticeship for example?

Resident hunters should not be given hunting licences unless they are able to determine what species/sexes, etc. can and cannot be hunted.

This BS story of hunting for meat will continue because of the attitude of most of the resident hunters. If the freezers aint full they aint happy!

You of course are entitled to your opinion - I am stating it from a factual point of view in this neck of the woods.

I think Late starter is looking for a solution here not a fight.

If residents had PH with them a lot of problems would be solved. Less wounded animals and no misuse of licenses, and much better change of filling your license. A PH is much harder to bribe. But it would have to be the operators responsibility to provide the PH.

A major problem is that many of the people that manage to get resident licenses can only just afford the license and wouldnt be able to afford a PH.

Note the PH association of Zambia did try a few years back to in encourage indigenous Zambians to do their apprenticeship. I remember they advertised in several newspapers. But with no response.

The problem is the people that are able to do it, dont want to do it. They know that it is a shit job with very little money and hard work just to get the license. There are much better opportunities out there.

And the future is not very bright for an apprentice hunter starting now. This is a dieing profession the way things are looking now.

quote:

I think Late starter is looking for a solution here not a fight.[quote]

Late Starter does not seem to want to accept the truth about the majority of resident hunters; what "hunting" means in their minds and tries to pass the blame on to hunting outfitters.

[quote]Note the PH association of Zambia did try a few years back to in encourage indigenous Zambians to do their apprenticeship. I remember they advertised in several newspapers. But with no response.

Therein lies the problem: Attitude.

If the local Zambian hunters are anything like the local south African hunters there's going to be an awful lot that couldn't afford a PH to hunt alongside them and even more not willing to have a PH hunt alongside them, let alone share their camp........ especially if they have to pay not only for their time but also for their food and drink.

I just can't see it working.

Note the situation here is different as we are not talking private farms/ranch. These are large government concessions where the operator has a lease agreement to manage the non-resident hunting in the area. Therefore the operator should provide the PH.

ZAWA are supposed to supervise/monitor these hunts like they do with the non-resident hunts. But they clearly are not able to do the job.

I'm not sure if this would work. But I believe that: If what you are doing now is not working Then try something new until it works.

Doesn't matter who supplies the PH, in the end, it'll have to be the hunter who pays for his time, expenses, food and drink.

Quite honestly, it sounds like the typical African trick of then turning their problem into your problem and expecting you to solve it for them.

We've all had it and we all know that when we hear the words: "Eish but I have a prrrroblem" means that problem is about to become your problem.

Late starter, sounds like African version of Affirmative action
Are you kidding me?
Let the free market and people who want to be in PH profession do the talking.
If you want something, you have to earn it not steal it
You sound just like our own president.
Maybe we'll send him over there after he is done here. He'll do you lot of good
When do you people get it, that progress only forges ahead with free market otherwise, we'd be still living in caves.

As a Zimbabwean resident with family in Zambia I can sympathise.

Funnily enough I actually came across this thread while looking for hunting back home.

Even before the land situation blew up, frustratingly it was beyond the means of most locals to hunt state land. One thing is certain; without a strong local constituency for hunting; economic and conservation arguments aside, trophy hunting has got at most 20 years left. I can assure you there is already a vocal anti-hunting lobby in Southern Africa. If the past has taught us anything it’s that if local people don't have a stake in something, they're less inclined to worry about its demise, hunting being more threatened in this respect than indeed wildlife I would argue.

American hunters are lucky enough to have the best public access hunting system in the world; so I don’t quite understand begrudging Africans that same opportunity. It also seems slight strange that hunting for the pot (personally one of my prime motivations) is maligned on a hunting forum... Regarding the economics/free market arguments clearly one of the spin-offs of mass participation in hunting in say the USA has been the huge outdoor industry it has spawned. Reserving large tracts of land for a relatively small number of foreign hunters (for half the year) is in the long run economically and politically just not viable.

My suggestion; institute a mandatory hunter proficiency test for local hunters, similar to what they have in parts of Europe. This would cover the basics of quarry ID, ballistics etc. and include educating locals on filling bag returns. This would clear local hunters for plains game but still necessitate a PH when hunting any of the ‘dangerous game’.

Could be a win-win for all involved as PHs still get a look in, locals happy, govt happy. I realise of course this would need funding – I’ve a few ideas already of how it could be pitched but here’s my question to the thread – what about yours?

late starter; have you thought about forming a local hunters association?

Well said Citizenh. We have a resident hunters association which we just rekindled. My whole idea to put this topic on this forum was to get positive ,input from foreign hunters who travel to Africa and who still enjoy their local hunting. Unfortunately as 458 poacher reminded , I was not here to fight. Maybe some forum members have to change their stance of opponent bashing and rather engage more constructively.

Let forum members please either support local hunting and give input to better this portion of hunting or counter it with input as to why it cannot work.

My real concern, as pointed out by citizenh, is that if no resident hunting is allowed than safari huntings demise will follow. If foreign hunters would love to see african hunting continue for their progeny than rather than being negative give us costructive ideas.

And that's where you have to follow example of US and Europe. Turn whole country into a friendly hunting districts, impose hunters safety, Game dept that will be unbribable and keep an eye on unlicensed hunters and on and on.
Certain areas will be allowed for foreign hunters ( Safari areas, which already exist and are very few in acreage in comparison to whole country ).
In nutshell, it is very simple concept, except the fact that you don't seem to get'r done.
For reasons of no jobs for locals aka no local economy, corrupt government and terrible political environment and tribalism.
Once all that gets straightened up, voila and you can coexist - local hunters with safari industry.
Where is a will, there is a way and no amount of circling will justify present situation.

And blaming problems on foreign hunters aka Safari industry is insanity.
Get as fast to Capitalism as you can and things WILL workout.

Would the local hunters be expected to tip the PH $100.00 plus per day like foreigner

There is only one solution as I see it. Local rec hunters get together and lobby the government to set aside a portion of public land for them to use. They pay fees for the local anti-poaching. Hell - I'd like to bet the safari industry supports such a move.

Would this work?

quote:

Originally posted by Joe-S:
Would the local hunters be expected to tip the PH $100.00 plus per day like foreigner

That is the minimum required according to some

quote:

Originally posted by Joe-S:
Would the local hunters be expected to tip the PH $100.00 plus per day like foreigner

lol.

I was born and raised in Zambia and as a boy hunted with my father in the Mulobezi and Sitchafula controlled hunting area's now called GMA's I think. Controlled Hunting should be a birth right dare I say a human right for resident Hunters. I am a PH in Zimbabwe now and the only way I can hunt now is by guiding Clients,something I enjoy but how I miss hunting wild area's by myself. Entertaining a PH on a personal hunting hunting trip would not be my cup of tea but I hope you Zambian resident hunters can work something out so you can continue to enjoy your passion.

quote:

Originally posted by Graham Mayger:
I was born and raised in Zambia and as a boy hunted with my father in the Mulobezi and Sitchafula controlled hunting area's now called GMA's I think. Controlled Hunting should be a birth right dare I say a human right for resident Hunters. I am a PH in Zimbabwe now and the only way I can hunt now is by guiding Clients,something I enjoy but how I miss hunting wild area's by myself. Entertaining a PH on a personal hunting hunting trip would not be my cup of tea but I hope you Zambian resident hunters can work something out so you can continue to enjoy your passion.

Most Americans would feel the same way if forced to hire a PH to accompany us when hunting up here.

Bill Quimby

You got two models to choose from
US and Canada model, which is combo of public and private lands administered by Game dept that issues certain amount of tags and also takes care of game population aka guarding it and repopulating all areas or European model, which is all private club leases where members can buy membership and club takes care of game numbers by protecting it and repopulating it and issuing tag.
In nutshell, you cannot have game numbers and good hunting where people wanna shoot game all year long just to survive aka AFRICA.
IT HAS TO BE MANAGED.
Something's gotta give...
There is plenty of outfitting for paying hunters here in US and Canada if we wanna hunt in other states and provinces. It ain't cheap so you guys in Zam and Zim, don't feel shortened. You got your work lined for you. Just please don't blame us , paying hunters.

Of course we all know how it is in Africa

Coming from the feudal United kingdom I'd go with the public combined with a healthy private landowner sector (i.e SA). Gets me very envious!

There will never be a perfect time to start implementing a better system but the game sure can't wait.

Latestarter:

What about a pilot project just taking in 1 relatively popular GMA. Design a hunteer education syllabus (you could pretty much poach it from SA where they have hunter ed for locals) and run a training event for ZAWA staff. Selling point for ZAWA; free training and extra pairs of eyes on the ground for anti poaching purposes. Hireing a respected local PH on a day rate as a 'teacher' would be a start. And as bad as ZAWA may be, I happen to know there are some good eggs in that organisation.

The results of this, together with bag returns (crucial) could be monitored over three years.The hard part is funding; you'd have to find a hunter-friendly conservation NGO. Thin on the ground but doesn't the USFWS give out grants? SCI? I know that African parks include hunting as part of their management plan for Banwgweleu so you could look there.

I sit on the board of a local conservation NGO so I could certainly look at a project proposal and help with costings. Unfortunately we have zippo funds for this at the time being but it is something I would put my name to in support. I don't think it would cost the earth either.

Thanks guys, keep on with these positive inputs, ill put up a summary of your proposals later once more input and ideas

Zambia is huge country, there could be awesome hunting on just about every acre even in very agriculture areas ( pig, smaller antelope species )
Again, the ticket is control uncontrolled hunting and have people understand, they cannot hunt for food as that is unsustainable
I wish you luck guys
Get everyone on board, but ultimately it will take smart political leader to help you with it

quote:

Hiring a respected local PH on a day rate as a 'teacher' would be a start. And as bad as ZAWA may be, I happen to know there are some good eggs in that organisation.
The results of this, together with bag returns (crucial) could be monitored over three years.

The majority of the rogue resident hunters know exactly what they are doing - there isn't much to teach what they already know.

The meat hunters don't give a damn about what they have on licence nor do they give a damn about conservation.
The "bag returns" will show that the quota for that licence was taken but in reality it will probably be twice as much if not more.

Whatever they shoot gets taken off the bone; skin, bones head, hooves etc. gets dumped far and wide so goodbye all evidence for any form of identification.

Late Starter probably knows who these rogue hunters are but doesn't want or is unable to tackle them directly.