Nick,

I would shoot the lion, THEN I would shoot the buffalo.

Regards,

Terry

WOW!!! What a picture!

How did this drama play out or is it a mock up? Either way, this is what we see in our dreams. A tag for both and double rifle in hand.
Thanks,

SAM

Priceless photo. Where do you find these photos Nic? ahhhhhh Don't answer. Just keep em coming.

Terry,
You caught me off balance with your response.
I was wondering "What Now?", in regard to these two mature brutes. If the buff is alone, I'd say he'll back off with the big cat on the high ground. Perhaps he woke old Simba up from his nap!? Not a good idea.

Interesting situation. As a tanker, we're taught to engage the most immediate threat. If both threats are equal, we're taught to engage the closest threat (all thrown out the window, of course, if one of the threats is acquiring YOU at the moment). I haven't seen a lot of you guys talking about "lions charging when wounded," but I have read about them running off into the brush and you "wounders" having to go in after them -- or, having the PH do your dirty work for you. With m'bogo, you folks seem to be consistent in that if the sucker is wounded, his usual reaction is to attempt taking you out. In the picture above, I feel (never having been there and not knowing what I'm talking about) that, in a worst-case scenario -- wounding either animal -- the lion would head for the brush and the buff' would charge. If both were clean misses, I think they'd both un-ass the AO. If I shot the buff' first, the lion would run (fast) and be a difficult moving target. If I shot the lion first, the buff' would semi-gallop away -- a moving target, but not as difficult to engage (going from the many videos of said animal that I've seen). Hmmmm. Okay, since neither animal in the above picture is acquiring the person who took the picture, I'd go for a solid shot on the lion, cycle the bolt, swing, acquire, and engage the buff', cycle the bolt, and put another into the latter animal. During which, I'd also have tried to sense the shot on the lion -- where impact (if any) was made, damage to the animal, result of impact (if any), et cetera.

So... you who have been there, done that, and "seen the elephant" as it were... what would YOU guys do? (Presuming sufficient firepower, of course.)

Russ

Keith,
I was hunting the "Lado", back in '47 when ... er, ah shit, I just stumbled on it while browsing around.

You're off about 40 years for the Lado.

Will

As I would have my 450 No2 double with a 480 Woodleigh soft in the right bbl, and a 480 W. Solid in the left, I would shoot the lion first with the soft, then the buff with the solid.
Both in the shoulder of course, then reload and sort the rest of it out.

I think I would pop a smoke grenade and run.

NIce pick,

For what it's worth I think the lion is ready to jump onto the buff notice the stiff tail ! And the hind leg of the lion ready for action while the buffalo looks like he has been surprized.

The lion would never have waited there if attacking the buff was not on his mind. He was probarly just ambushing it.

What do you guys think?

I think the lion is having 2nd thoughts and is moving back...I think it would be very unusual for a single lion to take on a buff...especially a male.

This isn't the best photo I've ever taken but I was a little excited....we had inadvertenly walked up on a small pride of lions as they were trying to kill this buff...he was in pretty bad shape, lots of blood and a probably broken leg, as he would stumble 5 or 10 yards and fall. The only thing that seemed to save him, at least for the time being, was the fact the lions all appreared to be exhaused and could finish him off.



Here is another photo showing most of the pride..they are watching the lion in the previous photo following the buff.....there were 8 lions in the group....the one following the buff, the 6 you see here and the last one was an old female who never gave us a good look and she kept trying to get behind us. This photo was taken from the back of the vehicle....I was getting tense being on the ground so close to the cats but before it got too tense, one of the trackers arrived with the vehicle. Oh, we found the carcass of the buff the next day...about 150 yards from where we last saw the buff.



[ 01-08-2003, 12:17: Message edited by: DB Bill ]

I too think the lion is moving back. Kind of, "hmm, too big for me"...

I'd st back and get ready to watch what may turn out to be one hell of a good fight!

Mac

Now What? Wish to HELL that I've got a the jingle for both, and a soft in the right... kitty kitty is going to get a golden bluenose, and mbogo is going to get a glittering pill... and then I reload!!!

Russ is right, boom (kitty), boom (buff)... While I think this was a telephoto lens, it still couldnt have been more than 75yards (with zoom) A bolt gun would save your ass, but a double might take both.

jeffe

Nickudu:

Is that bit of historical correctness really true, or are you just nmaking that up?

If true, I would appreciate the citation(s).

Will

This is only a guess, but from what I'm seeing in thsi photo, it looks to me that the lion most likely tried to take a calf, and got chased up on the doon. He is most likely up there because he has a number of buffalo around him, and is hanging in on high ground. The lion seem on the defensive!

In any case if they are alone, and I had them both on license, I'd deffinetly take the lion first, with the right barrel's soft, and dump the secong barrel's solid into the buffalo. The lion would most likely go on over the hill he's on, and give you time to sort the buffalo out. With a 480 gr soft from a 500/450NE at that range, that lion isn't going to go far, if he moves at all!

The lions don't always win. In Tanz, I found a large lion skull, bleached but still in tact with all the teeth. Maybe a buffalo victim.

Will

I'd say the lion is about to bug off, he didn't get that big taking on adult bulls with a forward attack. Lions are all about conserving energy. And I would shoot that lion without a moments hesitation. Nice mane and compared to a good lion buff are a dime a dozen.
And yes that is a great photo, I'd blow it up and frame it.

[ 01-08-2003, 18:41: Message edited by: KevinNY ]

Allowing for some anthropomorphization, my guess is that they're both be thinking, "OOOPS!"


George

[ 01-08-2003, 20:49: Message edited by: GeorgeS ]

Shoot the lion first and he will think the buff has harmed him in some way. Then he will jump the buff which will keep the buff from escaping or charging and allow you a chance reload and get a good shot on him and sufficient time for the lion to die and not be looking to take out a little death rage on you.<MAYBE>

Perry

Looks like Mr. Mbogo wants his rake back.

Nick,aren't big males like that always with a pride? If so I would think that big bull would be in for a severe thrashing.

OK, I can see that there are a bunch of buff experts here. I recently saw a film clip on TV where the buffs were going after the lions, mostly cubs being "baby sat" by some females. Is this an aberration?

Just BS'g here, as I've never once seen a male lion in the wild. Generally, the well organized buffalo herd or group of daggaboys may, at times, have their way with lions. It's also true that the big male lions generally let the females do the bulk of the hunting. However, when a buffalo is less than it should be, due to young or advanced age, ill health, inexperience or isolation, the lions will sort them out. I have seen films of big males busting in a deliver the coup-de-grace on a buffalo, when his ladies are nearing exhaustion. I've read and heard tell of certain areas where buffalo are just about the only thing on the menu and as a result, attendant males may play a much larger role in subdueing them, indeed, some are taken solely by lone males or smallish groups of males, usually brothers. This may or may not be very common, but it makes some sense to me. If lone females have been known to take buffalo down with solely a suffocation hold on the muzzle, I have no doubt as to the capabilities of the mature male, if so inclined.
Just as the lions of particular areas, such as Kenya and Botswana were reknown for their ferocity, many factors may play a part in the disparate behavior of lions. Not all the large predators are so intensly wary of injury that they appear to the casual observer as being less than brave. If they have reason, they can kill just about anything. Just my humble opinion.

I think if you as close as the photo seems to show, there is quite a chance you would be lunch in one case and mincemeat in the other no matter what you were shooting. Especially given both animals are on the high ground.

If you could resist taking a shot it might just get interesting, that is unless puss didn't run away.

But if I had a lion on my list, I would certainly clobber him and then get out of the way.

Nickudu, great photos as always.

DB Bill, I do like your personal pics too. I bet you were glad to get on the bakkie. PS did you suddenly feel "unethical" to not be on foot when faced by leo?

[ 01-09-2003, 04:21: Message edited by: NitroX ]

In my limited experience, it always seems that pairs of males killed most of the buffalo from the carcasses that I have seen.

Whenever I have seen lions not in a pride there are two lions (males).

I don't know how many lioness equate to a couple big males. Also lioness usually have the kids along and may not associate with many other lioness all the time. I sort of doubt a lone lioness would kill many mature buffalo.

Will

Hasn't anyone learnt the story of Davey Crockett. You shoot the rock hidden in the long grass in the foreground, the rock splinters and kills both the lion and the buff, one shot!, You use the second round in your double, to turn around and nail the leopard stalking you from behind!
Seeesh! Do I have to explain everything

Damn good photos by the way.

I would stuff the tube of my 45/70 lever gun with filed down match kings and drop them both on the spot. Fresh Tenderloin anyone????

Nitrox...there were lion all over the place on the concession so we saw them quite frequently as the buff coming over from Botswana for water were a magnet for them. The only lion in this group that made me nervous was the oldest looking female as she kept circling trying to get behind us. After we got into the truck (I was in the back in the open so I could take more photos)we watched for awhile as most of them continued to lay on the road resting. After a few minutes the Game Scout nodded behind us and when I turned to look there was a young male with just the start of a ruff walking up the road at a fast clip...we hadn't seen him before. At about 50 yards a hare jumped out from under a bush by the side of the road and ran right for the bakkie...closely followed by the young lion. It looked as if the hare was going to run under the bakkie and I didn't know where the lion was going to wind up. I dropped my camera (caught by one of the trackers) and quickly brought up my rifle (the Game Scout also grabbed his AK-47) and prepared to repel borders if it came to that....I had a clear vision on me and the lion in the box while everyone else bailed. At about 10 yards the hare veered off into the field with the young male in pursuit....the unfortunate hare didn't escape as he ran directly into a young lioness. The Game Scout & I exchanged weak smiles and I felt so pale my skin should have been transparent.

Later in the hunt we had a very large male with a beautiful red mane walk up to our walk-in hyaena blind. He was accompanied by two lioness. They first noticed us at about 125 yards and walked up to a point about 40 yards away....they were both curious & hungry as they had finished off the hyaena bait.

Seems that all of us agree to shoot the lion first but hell, I don't think I would even bother with the buffalo in this scenario (unless provoked in a big way or allowed the time to do so). Assuming I have a bolt gun, I would shoot the lion twice (or more) and then and only then turn my attention to the buffalo. As someone said above, decent buffalo are a dime a dozen but a lion like this is a rarity. Unless the buffalo appears agressive after the first shot on the lion, I would let him go or just tell my PH to keep an eye on the buffalo while I pumped lead into the lion. It is always best to buy insurance before you need it . . . ammo is cheap and taxidermists have plenty of thread. I would hate to mess up an opportunity on a cat like this because I got greedy and thought I could take both animals.

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

Shit,
that is REALLY a nice lion...

JTG had a good point.. both in the lion...

but, hell, I would put that big ole soft in simba... watch his reaction, and still stuff one in nyati's nose if it was even POINTED at me...

and then go back to camp and clean my trousers!!!

It really can't be far... and a .475 or .510 soft would make a mess outta the cat

jeffe

Maybe this is why cape buffalo can be so satanic. They have to contend with the king of beasts on a daily basis, so have been genetically engineered into the devil's cattle, else yhey would have long ago vanished.

Another thought: This is a staged photo using two full body mounts, a taxidermy stunt.

Nickudu is not talking, eh?

Is it real?

Where did this photo come from? Sum buddy who know?

DaggaRon:

Yeah, this photo is a phoney!!

I figure that should get Nickudu's attention.

The second most amazing thing about this photo is that it shows the size of a mature male lion relative to the size of a mature buffalo. Big lion.

When you look at a lion it appears like a balloon about to bust... nothing but muscle from head to tail.

One-on-one, that buff could have serious problems.

Will

Yeah, you outdid yourself this time. What a great photo.

Will

Great Photo