You can skate by with the baby calibers shooting lion, but I can never understand the motivation.

On my only lion, the .375 H&H got the job done, but by what margin? Not much in my opinion.

When shit happens and you are screwing around with the little stuff, you deserve eveything you get!

I guess I care more about the lion coming to a dignified end than whether some guy brags about his peewee rifle or gets his guts ripped out.

If you can't use at least a .375 on lion, don't hunt them or stay at home.

Ditto!

OK, so would I be fine with one of the following?
375, 378, 416, 460 Weatherby Magnums?

404 Jeffery?

Doc.

Ps. Thanks for all the input. I'm not into wounding a lion just to have it rip me to shreds. I'll take all the firepower I can shoot. I spent about 4 hours at a range with a fella that had a 460 Weatherby. Kicks like hell, bruises the shoulder til blue but I can manage it for 15-20 rounds. That was with a Pachmyr Decel Pad too.

also, what is PH? I see that all the time in African hunting. I'm assuming it means guide but stands for something.

I saw my uncle take a lion in Angola (over 30 years ago right before the Portuguese cut and ran) with a 270 and the old-fashioned Winchester Silvertips. Just rolled over and died. Never taken one myself, but after hearing that roar, I'd feel more comfortable with an air strike! Seriously, I've done a lot of reading, listening to folks who've taken lots of lions and yes watched a LOT of videos.

Empirical research to be sure, but I've come to the conclusion that lions and indeed any cat, are real succeptible to high-velocity calibers, combined with bullets that work of course. Big bore rifles kill them well naturally, but I think given same bullet weights and identical bullets, the faster bullet kills better. So, what caliber would I choose? hmmm.....378 Weatherby with Nosler Partitions....I think. jorge

The 378 Weatherby is on my list...good.

PH means "Professional Hunter".

As an earlier post states, you can get a sense of what a .375 and maybe larger feels like by getting the lightest weight possible single-shot 12 gauge, and firing it with a magnum slug. 3", or maybe 3 1/2" will do it. If you can handle a few rounds of that, you'll be fine with a .375, and probably a .416, too.

Typically those cheap single-shot 12 gauges don't have much of a recoil pad on them to boot-- I find that combination substantially more annoying than my Lott.

In any case, I have to agree with the general opinion on .375s-- anyone can learn to shoot one well. Enough weight, good enough pad, and enough practice and it won't be a big deal. I think nothing of shooting them, and I used to think a 7mm Rem Mag was a bear to shoot...

If you get one, put a hundred rounds through it before you add weight and change the pad. You'll likely be surprised at how quickly you adapt. And if you're recoil sensitive, don't start out shooting it off of a bench. It's an order of magnitude worse off of a bench.

I shot one big, old lion with a .300 Win. Mag. back in 1995 in Tanzania. I had planned to use my .458 Win. Mag. with 500 gr. softpoints, but that rifle went belly up half-way through the safari, so I only had the .300 left to work with.

I shot this lion on the point of the left shoulder with a 180 gr. Winchester Fail-Safe at 3050 fps. MV, and at the shot he jumped stright up, performed a backward somersault, and crashed-landed. His tail twitched a couple of times , but essentially he was dead before he hit the ground.

Maybe my .458 would have picked him up, levitated him, administered an airplane-spin and finished him off with a bodyslam, but it wouldn't have killed him any deader.....

Next season, though, I'm packing a .416 Remington for lion -- just in case!

Success at finding a shootable lion has more to do with how much money you have to spend than the PH. A good area, next to a national park, hunting relatively unindoctrinated lions, where few are taken each year...bingo! Big lion!



There are many times big lions in hard hunted areas, but they didn't get big by being stupid. They come to baits well after dark and leave well before dawn.



A good PH is a big bonus but the best areas require big bucks.

I believe ALF has shot lion with a 243 when he was a young boy. I have never shot a lion, but after seeing several at a trophy room tour I think I'd take a 416 rem mag. I gained a lot of respect for those lions when I saw them up close. I'm sure the 375 would work great, but a bit bigger bullet would make me feel better, but that wouldn't stop me from using a 375 or less if that's all I have.

Sevens

Doc,

I have shot all of those calibers, and my opinion is the .378, .416 and .460 Weatherbys are too much of a good thing. They provide too much velocity for many bullets, unless you load them down to achieve lower pressure or get further back before shooting. Since dangerous game hunting is about getting close, go for something that works everytime up close.

I recommend you begin with a .375 H&H as there are many, many rifle choices out there in factory production, semi-custom and custom rifles. The caliber is a classic not because it is old, but because it works.

The .404 Jeffery is really a "post graduate" choice in the USA today. It is not a SAAMI standard cartridge, no production maker is actually shipping rifles in the caliber, and no big US ammo maker sells ammunition. Other than that it is wonderful. I have been working on an article about the .404 for over a year, and just when I think I have it ready to go I find some other thing to investigate.

jim

Well I guess I wasn't that far off then in my empirical study. This is not the first time I've read folks "in the know" eschew the 458 Win Mag for lion. The 404 vs 416 piece by Taylor butresses that argument. Gents the 378 is an awesome caliber. Wish I had one.......jorge

I've never hunted in Africa but I'd like to in the next few years. Starting to save now.

Just out of curiosity, what is the SMALLEST caliber that any of you have experienced or seen used to kill a lion? buff? zebra?

Thanks.

Doc

I don't know about the smallest but I'll be using my .375.

I've taken two in the last two years. I've used up all of my luck on lions, I think.

For the first lion, in the Selous, I used a .375 H&H Magnum, which is a damned good lion caliber, but a .416 would probably be better, I think.

For the second lion, I used a .338 Win. Magnum, which is the smallest caliber I'd consider using.

I wasn't really after lion on that hunt, last month in Namibia, but the opportunity arose and I felt well enough armed with the .338. If I'd known I was going to hunt a problem lion in thick cover, though, I'd have brought my .458 Lott.

Is the risk similar to what we've all seen on the canned lion hunt? Do some lions charge the hunter after bullets hit them? Please excuse my ignorance. I have no experience, but I've seen many other posts describe lion hunting as much different.

Obviously I'd never use it but what would happen if you shot a male lion in the boiler room at 100 yards with a 270 using 150 Barnes or A-Frame or other tough bullet?

Would this just piss him off and he'd live for a long time or what?

Doc,

Zimbabwe's regulations require a rifle of 7 mm or larger with a muzzle energy of at least 4,300 joules (3,172 ft-lbf). Most lion shot over bait can be taken with a .300 something or larger.

If you have to follow up a wounded lion, big and heavy bullets are required.

Also in Zim they require a 9.3X62 or .375 H&H and up for Cape buff. Most other places will be happy with that too. After shooting a buff with a .375, I suddenly had a great wanting for a .400.

You can hunt zebra with .308/.30-'06/.300 mag rifles without problems with the usual provisos of good bullets and good bullet placement.


jim

Thanks! I need all the feedback I can get. I'll be needing some names of gunsmiths that build these larger caliber rifles as well, as I will get a custom one built.

"...build these larger caliber rifles..." You don't need to spend that much. Most of the major American rifle makers make an 'African rifle'. A custom rifle will cost you a bundle.
If you have never fired one of these rifles, you should before you even think about buying one. The felt recoil is substantial. A single shot 12 ga. slug is close.

Hey Ganyana,
This is a bit off topic, but I recognise that guys name but cant place where from. Who is Headman Sibanda??

Thanks

I'd agree with Ganyana on this. I'd also add that bullet choice is of vital importance on all species, but especially Lion.

Two of the dumbest shots I know of, was when a good friend of mine was out looking for an impala for camp meat with his 30.06, he saw a Buff and let temptation get the better of him. At the shot the Buff ran off and fell into a donga full of Lions.......they all exploded out of the Donga when the Buff fell on top of them and my buddy then got charged by the biggest Lion in the pride, so he had to face the charge with his 30.06. Fortunately, he managed to drop it with the last shot in the mag.

He's an experienced PH & taxidermist and should have known better, but it's funny as hell when he tells the story. He now has both trophies in his office in Pongola RSA.

Sunray, your point interests me. I've had an urge the past few years to go buffalo hunting. I don't own a .375, but would love to shoot one just to see if it makes me lose my interest in buffalo.

I'm not sure I would buy a .375 since I might not hunt more with it after the buffalo, plus I might be traveling straight from India to Africa for the hunt which means I won't be able to bring my own gun.

The question - how do you shoot a .375 before you buy it. The range I shoot at doesn't have loaners. I don't know anyone that owns a .375. Do gun shops loan used guns out for a few hours? That is about what it would take for me to make up my mind.

I shot one 11 years ago with a .375H&H, 300gn RWS cone point. He was standing broadside at about 60m and the bullet was found mushroomed under the skin on the off side.
The lion thrashed around for a few moments before collasping in the long grass.

I feel it was perfect considering the performance of the bullet and the way the animal went down.

You could get away with a lighter caliber,but I wouldn't want to go smaller than .338. You'll find that the .375H&H is just so versatile that if you are going to Africa it's a waste of time considering much else which may not be much use for other game.

.375H&H sits as the adequate caliber in the middle of the road for me. The bigger guns will do the job as well and better, some of the smaller stuff will suffice, but only just.

Kensco,
It may not be necessary to shoot one first, as there are so many floating around this site that I'm sure you could get a very good idea from our descriptions (might be a good thread for you to start).
For myself, I actually prefer the recoil of my 375 to my 30-06. I should say that my 30-06 weighs about 3kg with the scope on it and the 375 weighs around 4kg, but the recoil from the 30-06 is muck sharper, like a hard slap, than the 375-more like a decent shove. It (375) has a more "rolling" recoil, more similar to a shotgun than the 30-06. Using the earlier analogy, the 300 winmag has a violent punch recoil compared to the other 2. My 120 pound wife much prefers the 375 to the 30-06 (she wouldn't talk to me for three days when I made her shoot the '06) because it pushes her whole body rather than smacking her in the shoulder.
Hope it helps.
Original post:
I have used my 375 on buff, lion and zebra, but I found myself wanting on the buff. There are plenty of high grade factory rifles out there in 416 and 458 calibers. Winchester, BRNO, Charles Daly, and Dakota come to mind right off. Because of the DG on the menu, I'd stay away from Remington. They are fine rifles, but have feed problems when you are in a hurry and have had recent problems with their safeties and breaking bolt handles.

Steve was that friend Ric? I guess I will be OK next month with Vaughan as I will have my .338 and 375 H & H. I will have 18 days wih him for (at this point) a cat. The hunt was booked as a Leopard hunt, but with all this talk about Simba it just wets the appetite.