Yes, I know.

On AR the word 'ethics' tends to instantly polarize many of us, some holding them to be entirely subjective (or whatever is within the boundaries of the law), and others feeling that they exist as an absolute. But in this thread, I'd be interested in hearing about what you may have learned about safari ethics from your PH. Perhaps it was passed on explicitly, as from a parent; or, you may simply have picked it up through observation.

I have always assumed that a PH serves as a more than a guide to his client: If doing his job, he is also a mentor, passing on fieldcraft, strategy, tactics, along with proper behavior. Especially for the safari neophyte, observable field ethics will always trump well-intentioned theory passed on over a beer. It is in the field where the true measure of a PH's (and hunter's) ethics are revealed, often when facing some difficult - and possibly expensive - dilemma. Consider the example of All Gone, where the PH encouraged his client to bribe the game scout in order to overlook paying for a wounded Cape buffalo, as a case in point.

From my own experience, I faced a similar situation on my second buffalo hunt, this time in the Matetsi area. We had been glassing a herd that contained a massive bull boasting a spread of 44" plus, the problem being that it was standing on the wrong bank of the very shallow river that separated Matetsi from the Hwange National Park. The river was only 10-meters wide at that point, so it was almost legal. After several hours, and darkness fast approaching, the game scout crawled over to me and, with a wink, said that it would be okay to shoot it even thought it was technically in the park.

Part of me was instantly excited - I really wanted that massive buffalo - though I knew instinctively that there would be a quid pro quo expected when all was said and done. My PH, Mark De Wet, had heard the entire exchange and without a moment's consideration said to both the game scout and me, "those aren't the rules guys; don't worry, there'll be other buffalo". And that was that.

Funny, but I was relieved more than I was disappointed. Mark had steered us to doing the right thing, standing firm on principal and not situational expediency, and I felt surprisingly good about it. I also felt good about my PH: He didn't sacrifice his ethics simply to satisfy a client (and perhaps yield a bigger tip), and in the process he taught me a lesson, too. That's also one of the reasons he's considered one of the best in the business: He delivers great results for his clients within the boundaries of propriety. To be honest, I don't know what I may have done if Mark had taken the game scout up on his offer; but I do know that my trophy - and the entire safari - would have been soiled as a result.

Not all PHs are like the one All Gone experienced, indeed I suspect very few are. Perhaps we can hear from others who have had similar situations to mine - or All Gone's - in their African hunting experience?

Great point Kim... I have been thinking the same since following the AG thread.

My only experience with Africa was with safaris. The PH's were Jaco Haar and Martin Nell. I could not ask for two final gentlemen. Both took the time to educate me about hunting in Africa. Both had the right blend of humor, skill and doggedness to ensure successful and enjoyable hunts. Both were against "diesel stalking", hunting near waterholes and shooting less than quality trophies.
I shot, wounded a wildebeast and we wasted 3 days of a leopard hunt trying to collect the wounded animal. I paid the TF without hesitation.
The PH in Africa is much more than a guide. The trips are longer, it's a foreign country, we don't speak the local language and are totally dependent on their skills.

Ski+3

Good points Kim.

I have been to Zimbabwe twice, 2006 and 2008.

I understand that many inexperienced hunters (I could not have been less experienced) tend to over-value or over-rate their first PH. During and after my 2006 hunt in Matetsi (for buffalo and plains game) I thought my PH Darren Ellerman walked on water. I still do. He was hard working, knowledgeable, personable, polite, funny etc. And honest as the day is long. He definitely taught me about ethics, rules, fieldcraft, strategy, etc.

My second PH was a good guy too, but would not have been the best choice for an inexperienced hunter. Twice on the hunt I had to insist that we get closer and/or move the shooting sticks because of brush that could have caused problems. Would I have been assertive with my PH and done so on my first hunt? Nope.

After five year's time to reflect and having read a lot and talked to many hunters, I think I was extremely lucky to have had Darren as my first PH. There is no way the guy could have been over-valued. I just got lucky and had the perfect PH a green-horn could possibly have had.

shooting off the truck door

Hi Kim - thanks for the kind words - and for standing in my corner - much appreciated! Ethics, as you know is a very personal thing, and obviously means different things to different people, however I would like to think that I have managed to build up a reputation over the years with my clients, of simply being honest of what is right and what is wrong. Believe me there is a lot of temptation out in the field everyday for us to be coerced into crossing the bounderies - especially in todays difficult economic times. As we all know, making a living as a PH or Outfitter is pretty grim right now, so the oppurtunities to make a few extra bucks ( in the gray area) can be, at times rather tempting ! The trick is not too allow yourself to fall into this trap - because once you give in to a little tempation - and get away with it - it becomes a bit easier the next time to do - and before you realise it you will be breaking the law without any concious what so ever - and then you are down the path of no return - which, as we all know can eventually lead to destruction, loss of face and reputation ! It is most unfortunate that hunting has become a very egotistical pursuit for both client and PH - to such an extent at times that the success and enjoyment of a safari is judged on the size and the quantity of the trophies taken, and not on the chase of the quarry or the adventure and experience of being out there.
I have always strived to rather spend time in the pursuit of fair chase. Working with top class trackers (those masters of the bush) which I hope will result in the client taking a top quality head,and then going home with fond memories, and the desire to return, and do it all over again !

Interesting,

Piggybacking from the AG thread. How does this apply to North American DIY hunts? There are no clear cut state rules here in AZ that state, once you draw blood your done. I have been very fortunate as to not have wounded and not recovered any animal. It will eventually happen but not to date.

During the September Archery elk hunt here in Arizona the elk woods are replete with elk running around in various states of wounded. I have killed Mule deer on the strip with broadheads burried deep into muscle tissue, the same with Javelina, I once shot one with a longbow that had a broadhead in it's snout from the previous season.

I would also submit (negating the DG aspect of wounded dangerous animals being around)that there are far more Buff around in say....Zim than there are Mule Deer in Arizona

Sooooo... is it unethical because there are dollars involved or is it just unethical to continue hunting PERIOD..?

Steve

In all of my safaris, I have never had a PH that has broken the rules or law. In every instance of any potential temptation, they have always taken the high road and not even crossed into questionable conduct or the "gray" area. I have really appreciated that. It only takes once and then it is a slippery slope to trouble, the loss of a reputation that may have taken years to build, potential legal and/or trophy problems for both the PH and the client, etc. Maybe I've just been lucky or have picked the right PHs, but I would tend to believe that the vast majority of African PHs hold themselves to the highest of standards.

Nganga, this is not directed at you but in response to your query. As you stated there are not clear cut rules per se regarding drawing blood and being done but if you know you drew blood and did not recover the animal, then yes in my opinion, you are done.
Character is what other people know about you, Honor is what you know about yourself.
Les

TJ,
I agree with your conclusion in total. To further it; The All Gone thread and all parties involved, Doing the right thing is not the result of external pressure, it is the result of an internal circle of morality.

In 2004 I hunted with Fairgame in Zambia, There were some problems, NONE OF WHICH WERE BECAUSE OF ANYTHING ANDREW DID OR DIDN"T DO. After the safari I sat with the safari company owner, stated my displeasure, and went home. A subsequent offer of reciprocity was made after I returned home. I returned to Zambia 5 years in a row with the same company after that.

Point is they did the correct thing without being coerced or threatened.

But, yes point taken.

Steve

I have never had any PH even remotely want to do something illegal in Zimbabwe. In fact just the opposite. But then again HHK Safaris of Zimbabwe have only top notch PHs. After I shot two elephants with one shot, one of the game scouts wanted us to say that the second one charged as he felt there would be less trouble with Parks if we did. Having been on the LEO end of such a situation I know how difficult it is for everyone to keep to the same story and I refused to do it.

465H&H

quote:

I know how difficult it is for everyone to keep to the same story and I refused to do it.

Very good point. What's that old saying, "Always tell the truth. That way, you don't have to remember what you said."

quote:

HHK Safaris of Zimbabwe have only top notch PHs. After I shot two elephants with one shot

Hmmmm...2 in 1 ? Bad call by the PH if you ask me!

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

HHK Safaris of Zimbabwe have only top notch PHs. After I shot two elephants with one shot

Hmmmm...2 in 1 ? Bad call by the PH if you ask me!

You might want to be more careful about coming to conclusions and voicing your opinion when you know almost nothing about the situation. I can assure you if you had been standing there you wouldn't have known or suspected that another elephant was behind the tuskless cow.

465H&H

quote:

After I shot two elephants with one shot, one of the game scouts wanted us to say that the second one charged as he felt there would be less trouble with Parks if we did. Having been on the LEO end of such a situation I know how difficult it is for everyone to keep to the same story and I refused to do it.

465H&H:

I have drawn no conclusions at all - just reading what you have written.
Tell the story to its fullest or don't mention having shot 2 elephants with one shot and calling the incident accidental. Stuff like this does happen (example) when shooting an impala ram and as luck would have it the exiting bullet takes out a doe standing somewhere behind.
Dropping 2 elephants with one shot is a serious case of "shit happens" but a full and detailed account of events leading to the incident is a requirement and has to be reported to the relevant authorities.
Elephant is after all listed on Appendix 1 of the CITES regulations.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

After I shot two elephants with one shot, one of the game scouts wanted us to say that the second one charged as he felt there would be less trouble with Parks if we did. Having been on the LEO end of such a situation I know how difficult it is for everyone to keep to the same story and I refused to do it.

465H&H:

I have drawn no conclusions at all - just reading what you have written.
Tell the story to its fullest or don't mention having shot 2 elephants with one shot and calling the incident accidental. Stuff like this does happen (example) when shooting an impala ram and as luck would have it the exiting bullet takes out a doe standing somewhere behind.
Dropping 2 elephants with one shot is a serious case of "shit happens" but a full and detailed account of events leading to the incident is a requirement and has to be reported to the relevant authorities.
Elephant is after all listed on Appendix 1 of the CITES regulations.

Of course you drew a conclusion by saying the PH didn't do his job. Then you try to turn it around and blame me because I didn't give all the details of the hunt. I didn't because the point of the post was ethical behavior of of PHs not whether the PH made a misytake. If you wanted to know you should have asked. By the way the story of the hunt was posted here two years ago as well as being covered in African Hunter Magazine.

465H&H

465H&H:

A story that was recounted 2 years ago on AR can hardly qualify as a recent event and for those who do not read or have not had the opportunity of picking up the story in the African Hunter Magazine can hardly be faulted.
What we are reading, is a current thread relating an incident of you having taken out 2 elephants with 1 shot - nowhere does it say it happened 2 years ago nor do you enlighten the audience with details on the circumstances surrounding this bizarre incident.

That's a wonderful yarn Kim, because Africa is a continent where deep pockets can carry you a long ways. It's a continent rife with stories of all kinds of men in power, from kings, warloads, dictators and rhino poaching PH's who been guilty of lining their pockets by breaking the rules and abusing their power. The media does a great job of reporting on all the bad guys, but but so few of the good guys ever get recognition.

Many of the legendary great white hunters (and I'm not referring to anything in racial terms here), were in effect, poachers. Yet they're still viewed as great. Why?

It's nice to hear your experience with Mark. I too believe most PH's are good honorable men. It's those one or two bad ones, that unfortunately cause the masses to paint us all with one broad brush.

I truly believe if our hunting rights were ever stripped of us, it would be our own undoing. A failure by the industry to police it's own. Preventing the abuses from happening in the first place, is much better than trying to do damage control. All we have to do is read that thread from All Gone to figure that out.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
465H&H:

A story that was recounted 2 years ago on AR can hardly qualify as a recent event and for those who do not read or have not had the opportunity of picking up the story in the African Hunter Magazine can hardly be faulted.
What we are reading, is a current thread relating an incident of you having taken out 2 elephants with 1 shot - nowhere does it say it happened 2 years ago nor do you enlighten the audience with details on the circumstances surrounding this bizarre incident.

I will no longer respond to you until you admit that you jumped to a wrong conclusion with out knowing the facts.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Moja:

Many of the legendary great white hunters (and I'm not referring to anything in racial terms here), were in effect, poachers. Yet they're still viewed as great. Why?

Marc,

I said the same thing awhile back on a different thread concerning Mark Sullivan. With everyone bashing MS, I stated that many of the old timers that were being held up as examples of honorable men were in fact poachers. Most were constantly on the run from the law. I got blasted on that one a little. Not too bad. Saeed even took me to task on it a bit. But it is what it was, so to speak.

As I said earlier on this post, right is right and it doesn't matter if it is a guys first hunt or 100th to know the difference. I don't have a dog in this fight so it really doesn't affect me. Participating in an illegal bribe tells one very important thing about AG's character. Raising a stink on a public forum, trashing a well respected BA who did not participate in illegal activity, while that same BA was trying to straighten out the mess on his behalf, tells us something completely different. AllGone should change his name to OneWay! I've seen it soooo many times before while in the military. Guys who make themselves look good by making others look bad. One thing is for sure, what goes around comes around. Probably for OW, I mean AG, when he tries to import his trophies!

I didn't read all of this. If this has been brought up, i apologize.

Breaking the law in another country may be more than an ethical breach. It might be a criminal act in the US under the Lacey Act.

After hearing some of the cases in which US citizens were charged with Lacey Act violations, i find myself being a lot more cautious. It just isn't worth it.

Sure, I would love to take a big buff or whatever if it crosses the boundary. In my book, it ain't worth risking jail time.

What is the AG thread?


As for learning ethics from your PH?

Well I take my own ethics with me. PHs I have had, have varied from good guys who have had class and ethics eg Karl Stumpfe, to eg one other who provided me with a very enjoyable hunt and conducted it in a sporting manner, but had a reputation of a different kind.

Regarding "personal" ethics, if you are ashamed of what you did, have to re-write stories, pose photos differently, then you know the answer.

John, see here -

http://forums.accuratereloadin...1411043/m/7691078561

It refers to this hunt report - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4911043661

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:
As for learning ethics from your PH?

Well I take my own ethics with me. PHs I have had, have varied from good guys who have had class and ethics eg Karl Stumpfe, to eg one other who provided me with a very enjoyable hunt and conducted it in a sporting manner, but had a reputation of a different kind.

Regarding "personal" ethics, if you are ashamed of what you did, have to re-write stories, pose photos differently, then you know the answer.

Sports ethics, whether golfing or hunting, are often derived from tradition, culture, and in the case of hunting, conservation and science that beginners would have difficulty divining without someone showing the way. My first two PHs were instrumental in mentoring me in the nuances of 'fair chase' and proper trophy judgment, and I'm glad for it. I guess you're just smarter and more prescient then I am, John.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
In all of my safaris, I have never had a PH that has broken the rules or law. In every instance of any potential temptation, they have always taken the high road and not even crossed into questionable conduct or the "gray" area. I have really appreciated that. It only takes once and then it is a slippery slope to trouble, the loss of a reputation that may have taken years to build, potential legal and/or trophy problems for both the PH and the client, etc. Maybe I've just been lucky or have picked the right PHs, but I would tend to believe that the vast majority of African PHs hold themselves to the highest of standards.

Seems we are focusing on legal/illegal, and questions about ethics might not be quite that easy to address.

Hunting Leopard with Ade Langley a couple of years ago, we were getting pretty late in the hunt and suddenly needed more bait because of finally getting serious hits on two widely separated baits. I only had one more Impala quota and didn't particularly want to shoot another Zebra - what I preferred hardly mattered because all of a sudden we weren't finding either.

We were bouncing along a trail looking for anything when trackers started pointing to the right. I finally saw a Cheetah when he ran. We drove the couple of hundred yards to where he had been and found a very freshly killed cow Kudu that had barely been fed upon. Even I could easly discern the signs of the struggle.

After looking and taking a few photos, I mentioned this should take the pressure of our bait quest... Ade just shook his head and explained it wouldn't be right to steal that hard earned meal. Who knows how long and hard the Cheetah had worked for that kill, and what kind of shape he was in afterwards? A light came on for me - I don't know if there was a regulation or law that applied, but, more importantly, Ade made me understand why stealing that kill would have been wrong.

We did manage to get another Zebra, and the skull of a 17+" Leopard we got a couple of days later is within arms reach right now...

Regards,

I have decided to bring my own ethics with me because, as Kim said above, some acts can "spoil" the hunt even if it is legal and within the PH's ethics. That said, one should communicate well with the PH to determine local customs and behavior that would make one look bad... "Just not done, old boy". I think it is a good thing that ethics are discussed here on AR. Just remember, your ethics are yours, and the PH's are his. Yours are more important.