Curiosity question for the group.

I know most of us who hunt, part of the enjoyment of the total hunting experience is using rifles we own and developing loads for them - maybe even casting or machining our own bullets. Is anybody making their own powder too? Anyway....

With all the speed bumps regarding traveling with firearms and the constant changes and tighter/tougher restrictions, some decide to rent rifles from their PH's. Having never done so yet, I would presume that the rifles being rented are basic, safe, functional and reliable, but not necessarily high end.

The second part of this is that most people can't afford a high end double or premium bolt that costs 3 or 4 times the total cost of their hunt.

Let's next presume that you could leave your firearms and ammo home and had the option of once arriving at your "port of entry" you could rent a good to high end rifle of your choice and buy ammo for it at the normal local price and even fire/zero it before you left the premises. Might allow someone who doesn't own a "classic Africa rifle" (H&H, Jefferys, Heym etc) to have the "classic" experience.

Any unfired ammo purchased could be returned for a refund as well as empty cases - could be significant when talking about Nitro Express + rounds.

This is all provided the country regulations/laws allowed such a thing.

Question:
So, here is the question - If you could rent a medium to high end big bore, in country, instead of owning and shipping your own would you if the price was "reasonable"?

Choices:
Yes
No

 

Since you're referring to a big bore rifle, I'll assume you mean for DG hunting. I voted NO for several reasons. I personally would want quite a bit of practice time with the gun when I'm going up against something nasty. Likewise, a bunch of trigger time (more than just two to zero off a bench, or hearing it go bang). I'd be hesitant to use someone else's reloads for that matter.

For PG I could probably do it, but would still miss out on the satisfaction of using my own.

I was in Tanzania last december on a ten day hunt for buffalo and other game in the masai land area. My rifles never showed up. After four days the ph was able find a 375 for rent.It was a win.mod 70 with leupold scope, ammo was federal triple shocks. Even though I would have liked to have had my rifles, this rifle saved the hunt. Also the other hunter in camp rented a extra rifle so he could back up his son. His was rented at a gun shop in Arusha. Mine was rented from another outfitter near by. Seems like we paid around twenty five dollars a day plus ammo at two dollars a round.

I hate to say it but I can see a time coming (probably in the next 5 years or so) when airlines will be forbidden to carry firearms or ammo and hunters will have no choice but to rent if they want to hunt overseas..... or even in their home countries if they want to fly to their destination.

I reckon an example of this is the EU ammo ban they instigated and then issued a waiver for hunters and target shooters a while ago..... let's face it, the only ammo they can carry is for hunters and target shooters, so the ban doesn't affect anyone else and I note they didn't withdraw the legislation they just issued a waiver which of course can be withdrawn at a whim.

If it does ever happen, some of the hunting companies will have to upgrade the quality of their loaner rifles though.

I voted that i would bring my own rifle because that is part of my African dream. My current Simson Mauser 98 9.3X62 would be ideal for most African game including leopard and could also manage buffalo. My dream DG rifle will happen one day.

I would like the PHs on this forum to comment on how often they have clients who borrow rifles - particularly for no-fence hunting in Zim, Mz, Tz etc.

Thanks for the replies so far.

I too would hate to not be able to take and use my own rifles and load, like I said that is part of the overall hunting experience.

I was also thinking of what Steve mentioned about the proposed U.N. ban on transportation of weapons. Currently it's targeting auto and semi auto weapons, but once the camels nose is under the tent........

No, I wasn't focusing on just big bore DG rifles. I did mention the NE size mostly because of the high cost of the rifles themselves and with ammo a $20+ a round for factory loads....The idea would be you could buy some less costly reloads (loaded to factory specs) to practice at the range) and also buy a box or two of factory loads if you wanted and be able to return them for credit if not used.

I originally got this idea on my first trip over 4 years ago - guns and bags "lost" for the first 3 days and when they showed up one of the rifles had a hairline crack in the wrist. PH had a 7x57 and a 416 Mauser but I decided to just use the time to "scout" and waited for "my rifles" to show up. I think part of the desire to use my own stuff was because a) they were mine b) the time and effort I put in doing load development etc.

Personally, while I appreciate the craftsmanship/artisanship of the high end doubles, bolts, combos, drillings and verlings, I do not want to own one. The most expensive rifle I own is a 1929 Hyem combo in 16ga x 7x57JR with a 4x Hensholt rail scope in claw mounts. I DO think it would great fun do a hunt with a high end "classic African rifle" once in my life for PG or DG.

I got to thinking about this whole thing again while prepping for this years trip. Planning on luggage limits, gun restriction, travel requirements with guns, storage arrangements for guns for a week while we travel and sighsee before the hunt etc.

While I do enjoy using my own, it would sure simplify things if I didn't have to deal with all the things to take them now and I think it is going to become more difficult not less in the not to distant future.

i've done it a couple of times, but sure wasn't to thrilled about it. kinda like going hunting with a stranger rather than an old friend

For me the rifle is a tool that I use to go hunting. I want my tools to be good quality, reliable and highly capable of doing what I want them to do, but if the hassle of bringing my own tools to the "job site" gets too high, I'll use someone else's-- as long as they are good quality, etc. I am a hunter, not a shooter. When I look at all the logistical hassles of flying with firearms and the stress of wondering if they will arrive in country the same time I do, I am getting very close to the point where next trip I may very well leave them behind and rent when I get there.

I'd rather carry my own rifle and loads.....

but, BUT..in 05 my rifle was lost for seven days, I killed everything I wanted in those days before my rifle arrived. No big deal.

troy

In ten African safaris I've observed that many PH's are pretty careless about their rifles.Poor maintenance, questionable zero, haphazard collection of ammo, etc. I used a PH's .222 once that had a downright dangerous safety.

R.S.A. and other southern African countries severely limit how many rifles one can own, so a PH might not have the ability to provide the desired arm.

I think one of the problems with renting guns in addition to the ones already noted is that the "camp gun" is often not well maintained and can be a POS more often than not.

I do think that if safari operators would invest in good quality rifles, optics, keep a consistent supply of ammo available plus clean and lube their rifles they could make money by offering this option to prospective clients.

I've used several camp rifles and even though they served the purpose they all had serious drawbacks. Scopes were dim and stuck on one power setting, triggers were incredibly heavy, safeties didn't work and who knows when they had last been cleaned. Until operators can offer better options I'll be recommending my clients take their own guns.

Mark

You would hope that every loaner rifle is the most accurate and shootable rifle that the outfitter can offer

You would also hope that the outfitter would understand ballistics and point of impact vs point of aim well enough to know that irregular ammo will result in wounded game and unhappy clients

You would also hope that every outfitter was proud of what he was offering and would take the 10 minutes before and after every safari to clean, oil and test fire a 3 shot group before handing the loaner over.
If he is not willing to do that then does he really have a place asking the client to pay for wounded game?

There is no excuse for supplying a POS, most certainly not license related even in SA. A POS can be made into a great weapon by a half decent gun smith with not much cost at all. And if it cant then it has no place in a hunting camp.

The South African system is quick to provide licenses if the proper motivation is used. Better yet a letter from your lawyer costing a few hundred rand can be submitted after the three month deadline and I can assure you there will be a license on the way soon.
As an outfitter in SA you are allowed to have one of every caliber if you don't already own one and if you can motive its use. Easily done when hunting the varied game of Africa.

It all seems to come back to one or two vital ingredients. Pride, Motivation, Care and appreciation of the client.

What is most interesting to me is that the only country in the world with an amendment in its constitution that allows owning and bearing firearms is one of the , if not the most, difficult to import a firearm into....good ol USA!

The best arrangement I've ever seen on seven trips across the pond was on an RSA hunt with Jim Hackiewicz who goes by JJHack on the net. He is an American who is also a PH in Africa. He is the moderator of the African forum on www.24hourcampfire.com.

If you book a hunt with Jim and don't want to bring your own gun, he lets his clients use either of his rifles (30/06 or 375 H&H) at no charge even for the ammunition. Jim's rifle are tuned and accurized Win. Model 70's with good Leupold scopes. He loads his own ammo with premium (TSX) bullets.

When you think about it, the extra cost to the PH is minimal if it helps to bring in more clients.

I used a PH's Model 70 .458 Win on my first elephant hunt, and it had a nasty habit of not feeding if you worked the bolt fast. Sure didn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling. I had my own big bore for my next trip.

quote:

Originally posted by Hunters Quest:
The South African system is quick to provide licenses if the proper motivation is used. Better yet a letter from your lawyer costing a few hundred rand can be submitted after the three month deadline and I can assure you there will be a license on the way soon.
As an outfitter in SA you are allowed to have one of every caliber if you don't already own one and if you can motive its use. Easily done when hunting the varied game of Africa.

It all seems to come back to one or two vital ingredients. Pride, Motivation, Care and appreciation of the client.

Say whaaaaattt???

last 6 safaris- leopard, hippo, bushbuck, 2 crocs, bushpig, red diuker, suni, sable, kudu, springbok, rusa deer( New Caledonia), cape buffalo- all with camp rifles(leopard taken with a Ruger O/U 12 gauge while charging on a dog hunt). assortment of Winchesters, Remingtons, Rugers, and Mausers and all with quality scopes. no misses, no animals wounded and lost. if you have to overnight in Joburg you get the privilege of paying for both a RSA import permit via a licensing service PLUS the cost of the import permit in the final destination. total cost, about $500 or more. for those who have had the unfortunate experience of using a "camp" rifle that was junk-YOU BOOKED WITH THE WRONG OUTFITTER!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not no way and not no how.

I am a rifleman, as much as I am a hunter.

I would use another man's rifle only in an emergency, and only if I had no other option or choice.

Bringing your own ain't that difficult anyway.

your are right. it's not that difficult- only expensive and an unnecessary pain in the ass. a rifle is a tool- nothing more.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I hate to say it but I can see a time coming (probably in the next 5 years or so) when airlines will be forbidden to carry firearms or ammo and hunters will have no choice but to rent if they want to hunt overseas..... or even in their home countries if they want to fly to their destination.

I reckon an example of this is the EU ammo ban they instigated and then issued a waiver for hunters and target shooters a while ago..... let's face it, the only ammo they can carry is for hunters and target shooters, so the ban doesn't affect anyone else and I note they didn't withdraw the legislation they just issued a waiver which of course can be withdrawn at a whim.

If it does ever happen, some of the hunting companies will have to upgrade the quality of their loaner rifles though.

Sad as it is, I fear Steve has it right. It is becoming increasingly difficult and expensive to travel with firearms, and it is hard to see a reversal of that trend. The US (and by virtue of that, Canada) are probably safe for now - thanks to organizations like the NRA. For the rest of the World, where hunters and shooters don't carry any political clout, the future looks rather bleak. What a bright prospect for rifle nuts like most of us posting here

- mike

Mike

Again, I hate to say it but I'll bet that the ban when (not if) it comes will be worldwide and not even the Americans will be any safer in this regard than anyone else.

If a ban on traveling with firearms ever occurs, there will be a fire sale on big bore and double rifles.

I voted yes. The way things are going I agree that travel with you firearms will get even more difficult. If you're a shooter, you should be able to pick up a rifle and feel comfortable enough to shoot at moderate ranges, but the key to this is the rifle. These "rented" rifles must be in top condition and the industry will revolve around who can supply the best maintained weapon.
I hunted Mountain Lion a couple of years ago and used the outfitters 30-30. It jammed immediately after I shot, due to poor up keep and bad ammo. Then we started chasing Bobcats. We finally found one in a tree and he handed me his Nylon 66 to shot it with. After a dozen shots I finally hit it. I couldn't beleive I could miss that often until I noticed the front site was a bit off center due to the fact it was being held on by electrical tape. These are extreme cases but you never know what you might bget with a camp rifle.

If it comes to having to rent or not hunt,, I will rent. We had a large group of guys who always made a whitewing dove hunt in old Mexico. It became almost impossible to get our own guns accross and you could only bring like 2 boxes of shells into the country. We were hunting close to Eagle Pass,, home of Mossburg. The lodge onwner bought all new shotguns from them, had them for rent for hunters for 25 dollars a day,, autos's pumps, 12, 20 gauges etc. Made getting through customs easy. We were the first group to use them. The first day, none of the guns would eject the cheap low brass shells,,We might as well had single shots,,,not a group of happy hunters, they, Mossburg, sent factory reps down and fixed the guns and gave us all complimentary cammo, caps, paid our gun rentals offered us a rebate on our hunt etc. Bottom line we were using brand new rental guns,, and it was a cluster but what could we do,, the company made it as right as they could, and we returned for several years and continued to use rental guns, of course there was always some maintance isues with the guns,, they had tons of ammo pushed through them every day in the field. When it becomes impossible to take our own guns, it will take a change in my mindset to enjoy the hunt as much using a gun that has no memories,, and one that can not live up to what I would expect from my own gun.

I'm thinking it comes down to...bang for the buck (sorry).

What I mean is, if PH's are charging $25-$50 per day plus ammo and the client is getting something either unreliable or unsafe it would put most people off of all rentals all together.

On the other hand if I could rent a BRNO/CZ to a high end custom DBL rifle from say 9.3x62 on up to 470/500's that feed and functioned flawlessly for a reasonable fee and had an opportunity to put 20-25 rds through it beforehand I might seriously consider it for everything except maybe DG - can't really opine on DG honestly because I haven't done that yet (unless you consider "game" that is shooting back at ya).

If you consider a good quality entry level DBL rifle will set you back $10K on up and the possibilities of something happening to it while in transit making it unavailable/non-functional, the PIA of dealing with traveling/importing/exporting the firearm and seemingly daily changes the airlines make to packing ammo (locks, no locks, in checked bag, separate locked box, in/not in the rifle case etc) is making me really wonder how long hunters will put up with it before they give up. Don't get me wrong - I am NOT advocating rolling over and greasing up, but as some point the difficulties will gradually slow the sport hunting community down to a point where either the airlines or the governments will claim that shutting it down completely will have no impact - Kind of like that waste of flesh Obama and his even greater waste of flesh Cass Sunstein (his regulatory Czar) said, "you just have to nudge people until you get them to do what you want".

I for one will intend to keep traveling with firearms/ammo as a way to "nudge" back until "they" come to take my guns away. Then it will be like the famous Charlton Heston statement, "they will have to take them out of my cold dead hands."

Having said that, there is also a practical side of this too. If I where planing to travel to several different countries either before or after my actual hunt, I might seriously consider it as a mater of convenience and ease of movement.

I, like Shakari, think that a ban on the international transport of hunting rifles and ammo is coming sooner than we think.

Ironically, the US started it all after 9/11 by prohibiting foreigners transiting through US airports with guns. The increasing drug trade has also left its mark on this issue, and the airlines are only too willing to simplify their lives in this respect: All it takes is an accident or shooting incident in an airport for the dominoes to start falling...

So now, with the natural American routes closed to traveling with firearms, it is very difficult for me to fly to Africa with a hunting rifle. I am doing a safari this year and I found a route over Germany which will allow me to take my 416 RM rifle, but I will take no ammo, as I do still not understand the circus surrounding the transport of ammo, and I cannot get ammo in Mexico anyway, nor in the USA, where I formerly used to stop for a day to buy a couple of 416 boxes...

I voted yes, and I have had to go on several african safaris using rented or borrowed guns. I have had bad experiences, like the safety of a control feed action getting stuck in safe mode in front of a buffalo, who was decent enough not to charge me, and naturally survived the whole ordeal. Another time I found out, during the ceremony of sighting in in a fly camp by the Zambezi, that a fancy 416 locally borrowed by my PH for me shot allright but would not eject the empty cartridge, not even with the help of an iron rod. We spent hours looking first for a camp and then for a substitute camp rifle. On another occasion I was lent a 375 whose scope could not be moved forward because the ring screw heads where rusted in and their original hex screws had been turned into nice circles. I remember that rifle every morning while shaving, as it left me a nice half moon etched above my nose, I also flinched every time I shot it and really hated it.

There were also rifles that were OK, if not marvellous, but I still think there is nothing like hunting with my own rifle.

My only consolation on this matter is that the gringos recently dropped the main culprit of this irreversible and sad state of affairs into the bottom of the sea...

I also think that in case that the demand for rental rifles increases the outfitters will have to do something about getting reasonable rifles and ammo for their discerning clients, as otherwise they will not be able to sell their hunts.

On the positive side, one good thing about not travelling with guns, is that one can feel more relaxed about the trip, and move around with less anxiety about complying with the daily increasing maze of rules and regulations for sporting gun transport. The excess baggage costs also go down and more airline routes are open to reach a destination.

So I hope that, when that sad day arrives, the market will one day support the analogs of Hertz and Avis for hunting guns.