Just want know if it is better to go to a place where you sit in a blind over water, shooting animals in a small camp that was bought just for this purpose or go to a place were you do a walk and stalk free range hunt.

A lot of people warn me about South Africa, saying it is mostly put and take hunting where everything feels staged.
Is Namibia then a better choice?

After doing a lot of research it seems that the price you pay vs. the type of hunting you get, South Africa is over priced because they have to buy in a lot of their trophies.
Where Namibia seems to be a bit under priced for the type of hunt you really get.

Some comment would be appreciated.
Regards

I am qualified as big game PH in both countries, but can tell you Namibia is as a rule a much better destination.
1) It has a much more "wild" feel to it than RSA, even the fenced areas, which also tend to be bigger. A 10000 acre hunting area is average in Namibia, but huge for SA, on average.
2) We have huge pieces of unfenced areas for a true wilderness experience.
3) Our DG hunts are exactly that, not something that has a name. These areas are mostly unfenced in Namibia, and the game has not been re-introduced as a rule.

I do not believe that is a fair or accurate view of SA.

Yes, there are some small pastures that some operators run where there is some put and take activity, but I would hazzard a guess that this comprises maybe only 5% of the ranches? Maybe less ... Just a guess, I could be way off.

It is typically true that you will find bigger ranches in Namibia. Many of which are not fenced. It is true that most places you hunt is South Africa will be fenced.

If you are going to go all the way to Africa, you should experience the real Africa. Stay away from small pastures, stick with big properties. If it is fenced, understand the size and how it will effect the hunt.

I sell hunts in Namibia, one is on a fenced ranch that is over 92,000 acres. That is pretty big, I sell plainsgame hunts in Botswana on a fenced ranch that is substantially bigger than that.

When you go, do it right.

You will get a lot of different opions, that you can be assured off. It is a very valid question, and the only way to answer it, is to hunt both countries, and make your own mind up....

I am a South African PH, and have to "bat for my own wickets", but I am not blind to "put and take" practices that exsist.

Let met tell you what we do, and if it feel staged, I'll give you your day fees back. Yes, 95% of hunting in South Africa is done on fenced properties. IF we did not do it, there would be no game left to hunt.....Our country is one of the most densly populated in Africa. So the fences are not just to keep animals in, but to keep humans out as well. Some animals do not worry about fences...if they want to leave, they just do. Like Kudu, Eland and Waterbuck.

We for instance hunt only on properties that are 2700acres or bigger, as research has shown that game populations on this size of a property, can function and thrive in this environment on their own, as if unfenced. There is food and water and they do not need to go anywhere else.Stalking on foot for Kudu, or even Impala in the Bushveldt areas of Limpopo, without a vehicle in sight to assist... Let me tell you....it is just as big a hunting challenge, if not more so, than hunting Gemsbok, Springbok or Hartebeest from a vehicle in Namibia (been there done that), unfenced area not.

Yes, you do get a lot of outfitters that use 1000 acres camps or even smaller, buy animals on auctions and then shoot them in there. That is put and take, and I'm very much against the practise. We buy animals, ussualy trophy quality, at game auctions, but this is for the sole purpose of getting new genes into the old ones, and maybe to introduce a new specie to an area where they have been exterminated back in the days of the "free ranging" hunter. We get an annual qouta from all the hunting areas about what trophies is available where, and we make up our hunting packages according to that....

Prices.

Yes, some animals are a lot less expensive than others in Nambia. The best valued Kudu are to be found there, and that goes for more than one specie. I will not go into a Naminia versus SA debate, as I have good friends there that hunt professionaly, and we book hunts there through our association with an outfitter in that country. He in turns come and hunt in South Africa with us....

So, are there a difference in hunting in Namibia and South Africa.? Yes,there is, and we should be gratefull for that...The prices thing is a bit inflated, as most hunts in these two countries pan out in about the same price class. Unless you are doing a cull hunt of course.

One respected AR member, and 18'th time Safari veteran, hunted a Zebra and Hartebeest with me and one of my PH's earlier 2007. The Zebra with me was a challening stalk of over an hour, and he made a good shot to finish a great hunt. Two days later, he stalked a Hartebeest cow with my other PH, 7 times, in the middle of the day, and again finished off a good shot. He said towards the end of the hunt that those were some of the most challenging hunts he has ever done in his life......

I hope this gives you a better perspective of hunting in SA.....Good luck with planning you hunt, and we hope to see you soon in either one of the countries around a camp fire.......Because it does not matter if it is SA or Namibia...you must go!!!!!!

quote:

I hope this gives you a better perspective of hunting in SA.....Good luck with planning you hunt, and we hope to see you soon in either one of the countries around a camp fire.......Because it does not matter if it is SA or Namibia...you must go!!!!!!

Well said Charl

The quantity of animals also vari from region to region 2000hectars in mpumalanga will carry the same amount of animals as 12000hectars in the karoo or namibia

IMPO you can not make a living out of put and take hunting the auction prices is just to high for that.

If you have walked a 1000hectars you will understand that it is big enough for plains game. a lot of hunters are stil looking for wounded animals on that size properties it doesnt realy make a diference.

im talking in hectars not acres i think 1ha = 2.8 acres

It is very difficult to explain how hunting works in South Africa / Africa if have never been exposed to it.

There are literally thousands and thousands of hunters hunting in SA annually and most of them will be back.

I understand the concerns but you will have a whole pile of fun and will probably get addicted to African hunting - no matter where you decide to hunt!

There is a big difference between put and take and restocking. Put and take is basically buying a trophy a week or two before the hunter arrives putting it in an enclosure of maximum 500 hectares and then letting the client hunt that specific trophy/canned animal.

Restoking is where the farmer or owner of the game farm needs to introduce news genes to keep the population healthy or introducing a new specie to the property to breed and settle a good number population up to the extend where a certain quota can be taken off each season. To get to that number the animals must have been living and sustaining themselves for a couple of seasons which means the property will be big enough to sustain such a population and that the animals know their environment inside and out. So they know the best spots to hide or run. So it will be a fair hunt.

So be wary when a property is only 1000 acres or less. Unless its a property that has been split by a road or river but you should still keep an eye out.

I've hunted both ways on the same property in SA. The first time was a late season (September) hunt with my father. I enjoyed it, but I hate sitting in blinds. The next time we hunted exclusively on foot and I enjoyed it much more and still took everything on my wish list except the Caracal (kept falling asleep in the blind and snoring). Both of these hunts were on fenced land, but I never noticed the fences and didn't see them most of the time except the animal control fence along the border with Botswana. And yes, my father wounded a Wildebeest and we looked for it for three days and never found him. The game obviously has every chance of escape and evasion.

Regardless of where you go, ask the proper questions of your PH and let him/her know what you want before hand.

Colin

realhunter,

Thanks for asking a frank question. Wendell, Charl, Karl, Fredrik and Rudi, thanks for the good replies. I can add very little to what you have said in very balanced terms. As th Wendells "guess" that about 5% of all South Africa HO's practice "put & take" hunting, methinks it is closer to 25%. But that is also just my guess. [Remember my gutfeel is better than your gutfeel. Yes, I know that I can not proove it, but you can also not proove that it is not so! ] If a hunter wants to know if a specific HO is likely to be in this between 5% and 25% if words like "90 % of our trophies taken last (any) year qualify for SCI or Roland Ward records..." or any such similar words, be sure that the chances are just about doubled that he is in fact a "put & take" rip-off artist. Now I know that that is a dangerous statement, as there are some very good outfitters that operate on either their own very large and well managed properties, or [like me] arrange and provide "tarmac" safaris on selected ranches where there is absolutely no talk of "put & take" hunting. These will forgive me for saying that the "chances" are high that where any guarantee or implied guarantee is given about trophy size is given that at least some of those trophies are often - naturally not always - auction bought a few weeks before the start of the hunting season.

Like Colin said: Ask the proper direct questions from your PH. The honest guys will with conviction assure you that there is no "put & take" hunting. The real rip-off guys will either lie convincingly or dodge the question. If the latter applies and you feel that your direct and explicit question is not answered, either stay away, or be happy with the put & take big inches!

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

I'm confident that you can find "put and take" hunting in both countries, just as you can find "natural" hunting in both countries. It is certainly true that P&T is more prevalent in SA than in Namibia. It is also true that in the dry Namibian climate it requires more acreage (1 ha = 2.47 ac) for similar populations of game. The bottom line is that you need to research the hunting operator you are going with to assure that he offers what you are seeking.

However, there are other considerations than simply the quality of hunting, which can be excellent in both countries. I chose Namibia for my first hunt (and was extremely pleased) because as compared to SA (1) the costs are generally lower,(2)the "red tape" is less and importing your firearms and exporting your trophies seems much easier there, and (3) whereas one poster mentioned SA being a very populous country, Namibia is the second least densly populated country in the world (following Mongolia).

We hunted a "farm" of around 150,000 acres, a third of which was game fenced. Despite being partially game fenced, most of the game was from endemic populations, while a few species which were once endemic had been supplemented with additional breeding stock. The game was clearly "wild" and free ranging, and in fact, we killed about as many trophies outside of the "fenced" area as within.

I wouldn't pass up an opportunity to hunt SA, but I feel that Namibia offers a better value and more opportunities for satisfaction.

Is it true all private land in Namiba has to be fenced?

quote:

Originally posted by realhunter:

After doing a lot of research it seems that the price you pay vs. the type of hunting you get, South Africa is over priced because they have to buy in a lot of their trophies.
Where Namibia seems to be a bit under priced for the type of hunt you really get.

Some comment would be appreciated.
Regards

"Realhunter" I'm curious to know where you're located. In a previous post you mentioned you're from the US???

I've read your previous posts (all 18 of them) and notice that you seem to be doing a lot of promotion for an outfit in Namibia whom if I understand correctly you haven't hunted with???

So seeing that you asked for comment I would like to "comment" that I think one should be careful about making statements to the effect of "SA being overpriced" or that "Outfitters are mostly running put and take operations" - if you do not have first-hand knowledge about the subject.

I am curious about exactly how much research you have done and what / who your sources are...

Chris
I'm from Ohio, and still planning my first hunt to Africa.
You are rite in saying that I can't really talk about the subject because of the lack of experience, that is exactly why I asked the question. My intention was not to step on any body’s toes.

I was going to hunt with a operator in Namibia but due to health reason had to cancel my trip.
Now I have more time on hand to do the research before going to Africa. I will probably not have the opportunity to go to Africa several times, it will be a once of for me.

Regarding my sources, I have a college I work with that has hunted Both countries and that is where I have started.
A lot of the information I gather from forums like this one.

If you have only one trip you want it to be perfect.
Please except my apology if I offended you in any way.

Reading the responses from some of the other people there is a lot of Put and take going on and personally I would like to avoid it.

Real ,
ive been to SA just this past september and it was my only trip so far , going back in 2009 again to SA. we hunted (bow ) a property that ,according to the game ranger , had over 500 impala . we saw 5 in 5 days. this was fenced property and mho is the fence is there for the main purpose to keep people out not to keep the animals in . the fence really had no bearing on the hunting as i could tell.
one other thing to consider is the addl. airfare
somewhat levels the price between the two destinations , at least it did when i researched. and as in previous posts , please just go it was /is worth every penny and should be on every hunters list to do before they take the long dirt nap.
cheers.

/

Just a stone in the bush

Buying cheap is sometimes more expensive than paying a premuim.
in afrikaans we say goedkoop koop is duur koop
this is relevant for SA and namibia the oposite is also true.

that is why you hunt with a person and not a price list.you must get what you pay for simple

quote:

that is why you hunt with a person and not a price list.you must get what you pay for simple

One of the better sayings regarding prices, Rudi, although I still think you can get a golden middle way....with a lot of research and checking ref........

quote:

Is it true all private land in Namiba has to be fenced?

If you mean game fenced, no. There are plenty of non-game fenced properties in Namibia.

Maybe there is a law on the books that states that there must be a cattle fence, or as they say in Oklahoma, "bob" wire fence?

quote:

that is why you hunt with a person and not a price list.you must get what you pay for simple

Unfortunatly, not always. I wish it were as simple as gaging the quality by the prices, but prices aren't always proportional to quality.

I've found that some operators who spend a great deal on promotion, offer enticingly generous commissions to multiple booking agents, and generally run up their overhead in order to appear more "high brow" frequently offer a poor value for the dollar (euro, rand, pound sterling, or whatever). Some of the "lower key" operators who depend mostly on word of mouth, have a stable base of operations, keep their overhead reasonable, and don't try to get rich quick usually offer the best hunts and do so at prices that may not be the cheapest, but are usually well below the most expensive.

One good rule of thumb: If you see an operator featured on some TV hunting show, be very, very cautious.

quote:

Originally posted by Wendell Reich:

quote:

Is it true all private land in Namiba has to be fenced?

If you mean game fenced, no. There are plenty of non-game fenced properties in Namibia.

Maybe there is a law on the books that states that there must be a cattle fence, or as they say in Oklahoma, "bob" wire fence?

Wendell,
It is "bub wire" fence in Oklahoma. Get your dialects correct, please!!!

There are good and bad, and great and average in both nations.

It has been said before than most ranches in Namibia are bigger. The type of vegetation and terrain in Namibia does account for lower animal unit per acre numbers. Though the Karoo and Kalahari parts of South Africa would be similar to the Kalahari, Khomas, and Namib in Namibia. If you equate this to American numbers you have Wyoming our 10th largest state that has less than 1/3 the wild big game population that Michigan has. Even though they are similarly sized.

Just because a ranch in Namibia is bigger doesn't mean it has more game! I hunted a two big ranches in 2005 that had high numbers of some species and were shot out with others.

A ranch in either country primarily catering to biltong hunters will not have the trophy numbers of a ranch catering to international clientel.

If your doing this as a once in a lifetime deal you should probably go to both places.

Hunt with an outfitter near Windhoek for mt zebra, black baboon, gemsbok, greater kudu, springbok, and red hartebeast, then switch to an outfitter in the Karoo, Transvaal (I refuse to call it Limpopo), Natal, or the Western Cape. A booking agent like Safari Outfitters that books both nations will get you a good quality hunt and ensure you have all the correct ranches.

I would stay away from really new booking agents, ranch agents (agents that only book for one company), and Cabelas as they are so large you will get lost in the numbers.

Africa is wonderful I do hope you get more than one crack at seeing her. I am working on Safari number 2, and hoping to do it again before I retire from the Navy in 2014. The best advice I can give you is have a solid plan on the animals you want to take, be honest with yourself and your booking agent on your abilities and needs, and show up with an open mind and a warm heart.

I had a wonderful and horrible first safari. It was wonderful because it was my first, and for most of the safari me and the PH got along well. Somewhere in there we had some drama and it nearly ruined the safari for me. If it wasn't for my ability to roll with the punches I would have given up after day 3 and let them win.

Here's my top 10 things to do.

1. Bring two good quality rifles that are similar enough in caliber that you could complete your safari with either one. For Namibia and South Africa your primarily talking about plainsgame so that means a 30-06 and a 338 or a 7mm Rem and a 35 Whelan. A 375 and a 30-06 is ok, but you might get tired of 375 recoil on animal 14. Bring your own rifles, don't rely on your PH's rifles unless the airlines lose yours. Your spending too much on this safari to not hunt with a familiar rifle.

2. Ditto on the optics, good binoculars $500-2500 catagory. Nikon Monarch golds in 8.5x58 are superb for around $300. My first safari was done with my old pair of Swarovski ELs. They were great but didn't have enough eye releif for me and I was fighting them the whole time. Rifle scopes are important, but you don't need a $3500 Zeiss lazerscope for your Africa rifle. Scopes in the $300-1500 price range are fine.

3. Find out what the plants are like. I shredded 3 pairs of Cabelas safari pants on Namibias thorns. I would have been better off hunting in wranglers.

4. Take tons of photos. You can never take enough. Buy a at least decent quality digital camera with a good zoom lens and bring lots of memory cards. I would say 3 gig worth.

5. Bring good quality hunting boots that are right for the terrain. In the Khomas mountains I needed regular hiking boots, and in the Kalahari Converse all-stars would have been perfect in the sand.

6. Whatch where you step even in the winter time. I killed 3 snakes, 2 puff adders and a cape cobra in August the end of Namibian winter.

7. You can never ask your booking agent too many questions. Ask for the PH's name and if possible call him and ask him about what's possible. You might figure out if you have a guy you can't deal with on the phone.

8. Be honest with yourself about personal needs. Will you be willing to shoot an animal from the truck, can you walk, can you shoot, how far can you shoot, what can you carry, what can you climb?

9. Bring some A1, hot sauce, olive oil, lowerys season salt, and other condiments you consider to be comfort food.

10. Be ready for a really different kind of hunt, in really wonderful country, with really wonderful people. Craig Boddington once said that any camp in Africa is 10 times nicer than any camp in the Canadian Rocky mountains. I think that's stretching it a bit far, but it's almost true. Africa will seduce you with her wonderful hunting, variety of game, splendid campfires, and new sights and sounds.

My first safari morning I woke up 2 hours before everyone else and spent those 2 hours listening to leopards call, and watching the southern cross. The drama of my safari fades away when as the years pass, and I am sure when I think about it 20 years from now I will only remember the positive.

Go to Africa..... she's calling!

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
Wendell,
It is "bub wire" fence in Oklahoma. Get your dialects correct, please!!!

So many different Oklahoma dialects ... so little time. I stand corrected.

quote:

It is "bub wire" fence in Oklahoma. Get your dialects correct, please!!!

Guess it depends on what part of the state - South of OKC (Lawton) when I grew up it was always "bob war"

Real

You have touched on two hot buttons with your question. One South Africa vs Namibia and two, fenced or unfenced. People, often even those who have not experience both alternatives, tend to have strong opinions regarding both questions. Personally, I have hunted neither RSA nor Nam, but I would imagine that you can find a hunt that you will love in either country.
I have experience in hunting both fenced and unfenced areas. I've hunted the Okavango Delta in Botswana three times and have also hunted a high fenced ranch near ghanzi, also in Botswana. The ranch was huge, (Wendell should be able to give you the demensions as I believe he books it now), and the fence in no way impacted the hunt. Especially on the day that I executed a poor shot on a zebra at 11 am and spent the remainder of daylight chasing the beast. I finally put it down as the sun was setting. Actually, the hunting was harder on the ranch. I had longer stalks and more busted stalks than in the Delta. I attribute this to the fenced animals being a bit warier than those in the Delta plus the bush was more dense in the desert giving you fewer unobstructed shots.
Net net, I prefer the Delta, but this year after hunting Buffalo there I will be going on a ranch hunt for plainsgame. The difference in price makes it too attractive to pass up. I thoroughly enjoyed both experiences and expect to enjoy those coming up. I would not be totally put off by the presence of fences, but I would suggest that you make sure that the fenced area is sufficiently large so as not to affect the hunt. Do your homework, book with a reputable operator, shoot straight and you will have a wonderful time.

TerryR

/

Hi Guys
Thank you very much for you responces to this post.

A lot of valuable information was given and noted. I can see by the responces from members who run hunting opperations that these subjects are sensitive and I appologise if I upset some people.
It is always nice to get negative input it helps to keep a balance in live.

I think we can let this thread die down now.
Regards

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:

quote:

that is why you hunt with a person and not a price list.you must get what you pay for simple

Unfortunatly, not always. I wish it were as simple as gaging the quality by the prices, but prices aren't always proportional to quality.

I've found that some operators who spend a great deal on promotion, offer enticingly generous commissions to multiple booking agents, and generally run up their overhead in order to appear more "high brow" frequently offer a poor value for the dollar (euro, rand, pound sterling, or whatever). Some of the "lower key" operators who depend mostly on word of mouth, have a stable base of operations, keep their overhead reasonable, and don't try to get rich quick usually offer the best hunts and do so at prices that may not be the cheapest, but are usually well below the most expensive.

One good rule of thumb: If you see an operator featured on some TV hunting show, be very, very cautious.

All im saying is that you hunt with a person so check him out and his operation. what i mean by you dont hunt with a pricelist is that when you are in the veld the pricelist contributes nothing to the hunt.

you can have the cheapest prices but hunt with a idiot and your trip is a mess. the price will not compensate for the bad experience. the opposite is also true.

i do between 5 and 8 hunts a year and there is only 2 of the 5 places where i hunt every year i book when i leave for the next year. the other 3 hunt i look around if i like the operation i stay there. they are normally not the cheapest but they are value for money because of their service and offering and there is no hidden costs. you know 100% what the rules and regulations is and they do not compremise on that. that is why every thing runs smooth with them. Everything is included in your day fees.

i get very upset when you pay your day fees and you get told it is R50 for wood and R100 for the cold room so much to kuip and so the list goes on. this is normally a place where you will walk for days and see one impala and its a female that you cant shoot. his prices on the game is cheap because there isnt any he makes his money on the extras. I can see these oks a mile away already due to falling in the price trap when i was younger.

i can start a wedsite only on this topic i am not a ph only a passionate hunter so please see it in that light

if i stay 5 star i wanna pay for 5 star not stay 2star and pay 5star