What Santala said...

The only thing I'd add is the the Rigby cartridge is a LOT sexier than the Remington.

Oh yeah baby....

I have used the 416 Rem on a Searcy Mauser for years and never found it lacking in any way, if I want nostalgia then I use my .404 or 9.3x62, both on a slim, trim standard length action...not to say the 416 Rigby isn't a fine caliber, it is, just not my cup of tea.

Allen, Could you tell me about that Magazine box? I have purchased a 416, M70 and I am looking for recommendations on upgrades.

Thank you

I guess I don't understand the "magic" of Africa as the heat there must be different than the heat we get here. I use the same high intensity loads in summer as in winter and temperatures vary here from 40 Deg. F to 115 Deg. F and I have no issues with dramatic pressure differences. I do have about a 1/4 inch difference in trajectory between summer and winter but the cases all "mike" consistently and no other pressure signs show on the cases. I'm loading a bunch of different calibers and most of them are near book maximum loads (+/- 2% usually), but all are safe in my guns. Since the biggest cartridge I load for is the 300WSM is it just an issue with big bore cartridges?

What Crosshairs said....

On the sexy scale the Rigby is a 9.9 and the Remington is a 7. Major plus is the Rigby is more versatile with the ability to be loaded from mighty Weatherby velocity down to Remington level. Lawdog

Use the one that blows your skirt up.
I vote Rem. Mag....own one and shoot one made by Dakota Arms.
My little fat buddy, now gone to the big safari, Geo. Hoffman, did much of the developement work for the 416 Rem Mag. He was already noted for his .416 Hoffman (375 opened up) and Geo. lived in Sonora, TX. May I add that being as I am from that end of the world you may rest assured it gets hotter n hell out there and Geo's bench was right behind his house.
When I used a 416 Rem. Mag. in Tanzania and Geo. was my PH it was not the dead of winter. No problem with the two .416 we used there.
Don't get pulled in by that Rigby performs in the heat and Rem Mag won't BS.
Rigby actions are bigger, more expensive, usually hold one round less in the mag than a Rem Mag will and the ammo cost more.
The operating pressure stuff just makes no difference today.
The magic formula is still 2400 FPS and 4000 FPE and both calibers do that quite well.

As always, opinions differ. Some guys love Wins and disdain Rems and Rugers. Some just like Rems period. I just like Rugers as they fit me to a T. Now if Ruger had made a 416 Rem in their Mk II, I would then own one. Having shot the 416 Rem in the other rifles, I find the weight comforting when shooting the Rugers. Good points have been made one way or another and as usual it's up to you as for your choice.

.

Conewago

If the only goal is 400 grain bullets at 2400 f/s then from a functional point of view the 416 Remington wins and wins easily.

I see two areas where the 416 Rigby is ahead, neither of which might apply to you.

If you are a reloader who likes to fiddle about and would also like to turn the 416 into a high speed rifle with lighter bullets then the 416 Rigby is miles ahead.

If you think you might want to go down the custom rifle route with wood stock then the 416 Rigby is the choice.

Function Vs Fun/Desirability

Mike

Fjold,
Right on, Africa does not get any hotter than many parts of Texas, Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico and California...

Both the Rigby and the Rem are fine cartridges but if I had an action big enough for a 416 Rigby then I would use it for a 500 Jeffery, 505 or something of that ilk...If I gotta pack the extra bulk then might as well be in a bigger hammer it seems to me....

Another way to look at this beleaguered comparision:

Elephant, Buffalo = 400gr @ 2400fs + 0 = Either cartridge

Heavy Plainsgame to 250 yards = Either cartridge

If you're expecting to take lots of plainsgame at 300 yards+, you might opt for the Rigby.

I own both, a Ruger Magnum in Rigby and a Model 70. Everybody's pretty well covered all the bases. Fjold the "heat" issue was the Brits comparing the temperatures "on the playing fields of Eton" vs the heat at the far corners of the empire. Your California ( or my Florida) heat certainly qualify. From a practical hunting perspective, the Remington is the way to go. If you handload and want to explore the full spectrum of the 416,the Rigby gives you more room to play with. THe ammo is ridiculously expensive if you don't handload. Comparing the two rifles ergonomically, the Model 70 "feels" better. So I guess the bottom line is your personal taste and preferences. jorge

"Both the Rigby and the Rem are fine cartridges but if I had an action big enough for a 416 Rigby then I would use it for a 500 Jeffery, 505 or something of that ilk...If I gotta pack the extra bulk then might as well be in a bigger hammer it seems to me.... "

Hey Ray,...don�t want to say your wrong concernuing the action length..but Duane (Wiebe) says " I just wanted to thank all of you that participated in the raffle..Even I enjoyed the scene being played out. The 500 Jeff is becoming even more popular as shooters find out that the round will fit nicely in a standard 98. Much bad information is out there that the ctg. requires a magnum action...simply not true. The gun writer must have gotten it confused with the 505 Gibbs, which actually does not develop as much energy as the 500 Jeff,"

So ho is right?

btw,..although i haven�t an opportunity to use it ;( i would go with the Rigby...maybe for sentimental Reasons which already have been mentioned

cheers
Konstantin

I would recommend the rigby..

why?
I have a 416 rem, and taylor, and WANT to sell them both and get a rigby.

from a pragmatic point of view, you can have the rigby, in a cz, for 3/4 the price of a winchester, new each, and take the rest and buy the brass and dies, and STILL be ahead.

if you are building one off a mauser, the remington is the only way to go, for ease, and there's not a damn lot of that. In fact, if was were goign through the trouble to building one, it would be a 458 lott

jeffe

I got a Model 70 in the .416 Rem in anticipation of an African Cape Buffalo hunt. I like it very much, it is accurate, reloading is easy, an all around good functioning rifle and fun to shoot. My son decided he might want to go therefore I started hunting a second .416 and ran across a Rigby in Ruger # 1 Tropical, at a real bargain. I put the same scope on it and started shooting it and fell deeply in love with the rifle. If I went by myself I would take the Remington because of the additional quick shots, but my heart if with the Rigby cartridge forever, and I am getting to old for frequent love affairs. It is awesome indeed when loaded full and the equal to the Remington when loaded normally. My .02 for what it is worth, and by the way my wife is aware of this affair. Good luck and good shooting.

Tradewinds, my .416 Rem. was completely custom built by D'Arcy Echols, and the only way you can get his magazine box is to order a complete rifle. He machines his box and follower from solid, heat-treated stainless steel. These boxes are thick, and resist battering caused by recoil. Thin, soft factory boxes have been know to get very battered and to sometimes split because the cartridges tend to move forward in the magazine under recoil, and the bullets then impact the front of the magazine box. The problem becomes exacerbated with a magazine full of solids.

The only other aftermarket box I know of (available for seperate sale) that holds four-down is produced by Ted Blackburn, and I don't have contact info or a current product list from him. I believe custom riflemaker David Miller gets his boxes and followers from Ted.

Even if you get a proper magazine assembly, you then have to hire a highly skilled, experienced riflesmith (not a wannabe) to alter the action, open up the stock mortice (magazine area) then fit and tweek the whole works for proper function. This is not a drop-in proposition. The whole proceedure, parts included, is worth more than the cost of a factory rifle, unfortunately.


AD

Perhaps this page from Chuck Hawks website might be of help. It is his opinion, and his opinion only, but backed up with some figures.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/game_range_caliber.htm
What he does is to figure out what the maximum range would be for various sized game animals. According to the chart at this site, the two are identical. Get the one that you think is best, and you will have a fine dangerous game rifle. I have a .416 rem. mag. Winchester model 70 Safari Express, and am well satisfied with it. Sexy? Not in the least. Does it kill what I shoot at? You betcha.

.

Alf, you just got to stop posting sexy pictures of old guns with good wood! You're just plain killing me.

I have hunted with 2 PH's that carried .416 Rem. Mags.

If you look at their cartridge belts, the cartridges are a proper collection of stuff I would have thrown away a long time ago. A mixture of softs and solids, half of them dented, and no two appear to match in outward appearance.

When I told the one PH I was bringing a 416 RM this year over the phone yesterday, I could hear his voice crack at the very thought of getting a new batch of cartridges that "surely I would leave behind for him."

Then project this to appy's that are out combing the bush for any cartridges a client might have accidently dropped in years gone by, it is a wonder some of those guys taking the examination are not killed outright.

And we depend on the PH's to protect us. Ha.

Tradewinds and Allen, I talked with Ted Blackburn recently about his magazine boxes. They come with his bottom metal only. You can't get them seperately. But they are seperate units so if you go with his bottom metal or can sell it, you've got the box.

I'm considering this for a 300 win mag project I've got on the drawing board.

Alf, it could be that those pressure problems might have been caused by a specific lot of factory ammunition that was simply loaded too hot. I've see this before, and specifically with Remington ammunition.

I have a batch of factory .375 H&H ammo from Remington (300 gr. Swift A-Frame) that gives a sticky bolt handle lift with my rifle, and this at all temeratures. This is almost unheard of in .375 H&H. I wouldn't consider using this ammunition on safari. The funny part is, that particular rifle has never shown a sign of indigestion with any other lot of factory ammo or handloads.

AD

You can get 4 down in a Sunny Hill drop box, but that requires a new stock.

From an internal ballistics perspective, there is no sense using relatively fast powders like R15 in the 416 Rem with 400 gr bullets. This I believe was the problem with early ammo.

H4350 is the ticket, and will give you 2450 fps all day long at 44,000 CUP. You can't get these loads hot enough to MAKE 'em stick!

Sabot, that's a heck of a tip! I'm going to try it....

AD

Konst,
I stand corrected and I knew better, I just put the 500 Jefferys in the same catagory with the 505 Gibbs because they were both 50 caliber, my mistake...The 500 Jefferys can be built on a standard M-98 action..

That said, some 500 Jefferys have been made on magnum actions and many folks believe that is the best route for them...I personally would opt for a std. length Mauser for a 500 Jefferys, if properly done with a properly fitted drop box magazine..

When I clocked Rem. factory loads (400 gr. Swift) they were right at 2400 fps. So let us not start another bad-mouthing Rem. thread, when it may be a rifle problem just as easily.

HI,

I am waiting for my 416 rigby on cz from MR. Brockman for a long time now,hint,hint.I think now either would have been fine, as how much more could I really load up the rigby,will in reason.I will be using this rifle in Alaska when I move there,I hope now within the next year and some day for buff Kev

Kev,

One has to take these posts with a grain of salt. As much mis-information as good information. The Rigby is just fine, and so is the Rem.

But Bill, the Rigby is just a little finer...

I figured this topic would, sooner or later, make you come forth from the woods.

There are some topics I simply cannot resist. The old argument between the Rem & Rigby is just too enticing to pass up.

My solution to the problem is just select the .416 Dakota and be done with it. It�s the best of both worlds - performance and case capacity. It is what the .416 Rem should have been...

I didnt hear any body say the Rigby brass is $2.00 each and the 416 Remington Brass is .38 each.I have reloaded one 416 Rem mag case 17 times!I have 3 416 Rem mags.I have one Winchester Express rifle that I have shot around 1600 times.I have two remington big game rifles that I love .They have 22" barrels and weigh 8.5 pounds loaded with a 3x9 Nikon on them.I have yet to find a better handling Dangerous Game rifle than these two I have.It balances like a dream and takes a lickin and keeps on tickin.They have HS stocks on the and kick way less than the heavier Winchester Express rifle in 416 Rem mag.The 416 Rem mag is an awesome caliber so is the 416 Rigby .Its apples and oranges to me.

Perugini-Visini is making sidelock doubles in .416 Rem, I saw one at the Las Vegas show, quite beautiful but I would not trust it. I think at least one .416 Rigby double was made, by Rigby, in days gone by.

I like the looks of the Rigby round and I doubt there would be that much weight difference between a .416 rem Safari M70 & a cz 550. I think winchester fib a little with the factory rifle weights.

"It's where the love falls," as the lady said when she kissed the cow.

Anyone thinking that the BRNO ZKK 602 is "sexy" must obviously be blind as a bat! That trigger is about the most unconventional and ugly I've ever seen!

Thank God Winchester, Remington, and Ruger make rifles that look good in the bigger calibers!

vigillinus
Chapuis and Merkel also make a 416 Rigby Double rifle. Why they both to not chamber for the 500/416 Flanged is beyone me.