damn right woodhits, preach on!!!!! live and die by the sword fella's its all about the thrill, like i said over on the big game forum he should have used matchkings!!!!

Woodhits:

This reminds me of the old suits, catching Coca-cola putting cocaine in their product. Take about a bit of extra zip!!!

I guess you may not be old enough to remember it, but there was a time when smoking was not believed to be bad for your health, and the cig companies knew it. They also knew nicotine is one of the most addicting drugs on the planet, so they stuffed extra nicotine into cigs, to make sure you really needed that next death stick.

This is just one example of big companies putting greed above all else.

My favorite was the Pinto. Exploding gas tank?
Let's balance the fix cost against the pay off costs for wrongful death actions, and we don't change anything. This kind of stuff should be on your agenda, as a DA, taking those execs that made those decisions, and trying them for murder.

Want to really cut down on these kinds of cases?
Get off your ass, and as a DA, go after corporate executives that make decisions such as the Ford execs.

Wonder if future bean-counters would make such decisions, if they knew instead of the company paying money, they would be doing 25 to life for premeditated murder. Take about wanton disregard for human life....

By the way, I agree that the hunter missed the CNS, and it's his fault, not the ammomakers, if the bullet didn't blow up on the surface.
s
s

1. Too many people looking for "free" money!

2. It is ALWAYS someone elses fault.

3. Take personal responsibility? You must be kidding.

4. Shit happens. His hault, their fault, or sometimes nobody is at fault. We have all seen strange things happen with bullets from time to time.

I apologize to those of you in the legal profession who are upright and ethical. Common sense seems to have nothing to do with the law. Maybe a little culling is in order on the rest of the profession. Truthfully I think it is just another example of the talk show mentality at work. LAst this guy as a "professional" hunter should sure as hell know better.

/

Alf,

HERE! HERE!

[ 04-20-2003, 20:19: Message edited by: Socrates ]

/

Who led this thread astray? Da Judge? Way off base. But now that we are here ...

Socrates,
You may have recourse against the doctor. That is why we have malpractice insurance. Did he put a tape measure to your calves? Did he squeeze your calves and dorsiflex your ankles looking for Homan's sign to guide the decision whether to do the venous Doppler ultrasound or venogram? Go get him if not. I don't know all the facts, and I can't say when you developed the blood clot, before or after the doctor visit. Folks get those from a 2 hour car trip sometimes if they are predisposed. For future peace of mind, you might want to be tested for protein C and protein S deficiency. If you have it you might as well go on Coumadin for life. Of course being inactive after surgery is the predisposer to your clot, or deep venous thrombosis, and you might not have been tested for the deficiency, but you will be if you ever get another clot.

You have taken Alf's comments in entirely the wrong way. Now quit feeling sorry for yourself and get on with life. Go sue someone if it will make you feel better. A DVT does not cripple and disfigure for life, assuming it doesn't embolize and kill you. Get on with life.

Da Judge,
That MAG must be a newcomer to professional liability if they have never paid a claim. Maybe they are upstarts that have assumed the liabilities of the companies that folded, as many have. It won't be long before they have to start paying out, I am sure. The stock market thing is old hat, and we are well aware of it. What would premiums paid by doctors be like without a good return on the Insurance company investments? I guess we are about to see, and we will pass the cost on to consumers or go out of business. Some practicing physicians work like slaves, actually moving from patient to patient for 24 hours straight sometimes, for much less than the amount you claim to be the norm. You better list the specialty when you quote pie in the sky. Death and taxes, we pay both pipers.

Alf,
Thanks for saying it for me. Ditto.

The PH suing Federal: What a lame prick.

[ 04-21-2003, 00:49: Message edited by: DaggaRon ]

PS: Coca Cola wasn't "caught" putting cocaine in the product. When they first came out around the turn of the century they were openly based on a cocaine additive, hence the name "Coca" Cola. Times changed, with the likes of TR and the FDA, and cocaine was taken out of the "soft drink."

Yep, that PH suing Federal sure is a lame prick.

There is justice in this world.

A jury is unlikely to award any money in the case. The lawyer will end up eating several hundred hours of work without compensation (but he will still have to pay his overhead), and the PH will be on the hook for several thousand dollars in out of pocket costs.

[ 04-20-2003, 23:33: Message edited by: 500grains ]

Daggaron said:
" Get on with life."

See, that's the problem, and why we have lawyers:
sometimes you can't get on with your life.

I waited tables for a very long time. Now, it's a questionable option.

I was trying to ref basketball games today, and, even though the DVT is not supposed to affect it, it did.
My right leg cramps(woke up at 3 am yesterday with severe cramps in my right leg), and, the other leg and back are thrown off. Ended up with Plantar F.. in my left leg, thanks to the right leg being screwed up, and my back doesn't like the altered walk and run dynamics, thanks to the whole operation, and resulting trauma.
Play ball with my kids, like I used too? I think that maybe over. Lateral movement is pretty much gone...
You see I work in pretty much a ghetto school, and one of the great openings for positively affecting my kids lives was their respect for my game, and vice versa.
The fact that I'm out, playing with them, opens up conversation, and issues, that allow me to positively influence a great number of kids. I have skills they want to learn...

Likewise refing basketball games.

I'm trying to do a spring league, and a bunch of coaches are mad because I gave them technical fouls for running their mouths. Why? Because they provide bad examples for the girls they coach, who then start thinking they can do the same thing, running their mouths, and bitching about calls, instead of playing a clean, good, basketball game.

See, I understand how you guys feel. This guy is screwing up the game, by bitching about something that he is responsible for. He's the PH, he took the chance, and, in all likelyhood, he missed.

If that's the case, you all are correct: it's not Federal's fault.

I would really like to see where the bullet hit, and the results, before passing judgement.

As Saeed has pointed out, perhaps it's all the hunter's fault, using the wrong sort of bullet for both his job, and the situation. Perhaps Saeed is correct, that the man should not have been using Bear Claws at all, but solids, so he could get through skull, and bone, to the CNS.

I won't know the answer until all the bullshit is over, and the facts are presented.

Often attorney's use bluster and bull to accompany the Notice of intent to file suit, so the company has notice, and has to review the facts. Their products preformance, etc. or, in my case, the doctor's failure to do any of Daggaron's examination techniques.

Perhaps we will be able to make a better judgement if the case is ever filed.

Certainly from the lawyer's statement, one must question the entire situation.

If others have used the same bullet with success, in a similar situation, why didn't it work for this guy?

Another angle is perhaps the area the suit is filed in, and I think that's in the 9th circuit. Perhaps with diversity jurisdiction, the case could be filed in the 9th, but I don't know where federal is, or the Plaintiff.

Anyway, one of the results of tort cases is someone who had a product failure, and suffered harm, ends up destroyed by hospital bills and injuries, and in financial ruin, as well.
If the product was defective, since many here have stated it WAS suitable for the application at hand, then the guy has a case, and cause.

Facts will decide one way or another...
By the way, the only way I believe he has a case is if THAT particular bullet failed to hold line, or blew up, rather then penetrating. The lawyer's blustering leaves me totally unpersuaded at this juncture.
I'm not even sure the failing to hold line argument has any basis, either.
s

s

This reminds me of a scetch I saw on TV once-

A young girl is in the hospital giving birth.Mother comes in the room,girl turns to her and yells "It ain't my baby mamma!".

I stuck myself in the finger last week while restringing my guitar.Should I sue Fender,who made the strings,or Epiphone who made the guitar,or both?Take the end of a guitar string and shove it into your index finger and tell me that doesn't warrant a multi-million dollar law suit.

Brian.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Socrates:

Socrates,

Ever considered euthanasia ?
Go on, do us all a favour !!
DJ.

Sure. All I have to do is indulge in British cusine for a couple days, and that should finish me off...
s

DJ:
I've always wondered:
Does the food cause the bad teeth, or did the bad teeth create the cusine?

Alf said:
"I too am tired of being demeaned by those who fire broadsides at me or my profession. "

Yes, against those of us who believe, or have worked in, the legal profession feel much the same.

I don't see a broadside. I see a specific incident. Problem is, it's STILL affecting my life, and it may do so for the rest of my life.

Besides, some companies, and people, are just BAD, and the only recouses against them are violence, or the law...

I don't think using a tongue depressor is going to stop some of the gangs I'm around, day in, and day out...

Alf: I'm really sorry for the reply being a bit harsh. Don't take it personally. You didn't screw up my leg. And, I realize it was too personal. My mistake.

gs

/

Alf:
I hope you realize the I was bashing the insurance companies, not doctors (except that they have been complaining against the wrong parties... lawyers, instead of the real culprits, insurance companines.)

The financial figures prove that a reasonable insurance product can be sold to doctors at a reasonable price. Insurance companies, unfortunately, have the bucks to buy (at least to date) the publicity to scare doctors into panicing.

In my small community of 70,000, the local hospital, which serves three other counties of maybe an additional 60,000 people has only had one adverse medical malpractice verdict, EVER. Yet, local doctors are all ready to march on the legislature.... I agree with them, their insurance premiums are too high... But, is there anger directed towards their insurors? Unfortunately, not.

As to the original purpose of this thread.... I agree with most of the posters... Lawyers like this give my profession a bad name.

I should think the attornies at Alliant or the Federal Cartridge company could find expert witnesses:

who have seen bad bullets perform badly

who have seen Trophy Bonded Bear Claws perform better than most bullets on lions

who can explain the concept of dangerous game hunting to a jury

who can make the case this PH should know better than to be in court about this

H. C.

JuideG, I partially agree with you. I think it is a combination of the less than ethical lawyers, the insurance industry, and all those people looking for a free ride. It is unfair to put the balme only one place. All I know is my malpractice insurance has tripled and I have never had a claim. What frosts me is that it is cheaper for the insurance companies to pay going away money than it is to settle a claim. There is no reason to even defend against frivolous stuff like this from the monetary side in their viewpoint. I am all for rewards in just cases but how do you weed out all the BS? Until there is some type of tort reform we will continue to see this sort of thing happen.

[ 04-21-2003, 03:45: Message edited by: Mike Smith ]

Ahh, Doctor's squeezed with very high insurance rates, not justified by claims.

Didn't this happen in the 70-80's, one time before?

Judge has nailed the real culprit, insurance companies. Nothing new. Anytime a group has to be insured by law it provides a great chance for collusion and price fixing. It happens in Kalifornia on car insurance, medical insurance, etc. Simple solution, indemnify yourself, which most states allow, or get together and have the state set the rates, at a fair profit.

We have the same with oil companies. We are now paying about 2.50 a gallon for premium, for no particular reason, other then the gas companies remembered they jacked the gas prices in 1991, and they figure they can get away with it another time.

It's sort of like the errosion principal. The prices are jacked up, the gov threatens, suits are filed, prices drop, but the companies keep the money, and the lowest price stays higher then before, for no real reason.

I find if in the equation, a large company is managing to make tons of money, that's where the fire usually is.

My health insurance has also doubled in the last couple years, due to insurance companies. The irony is without Blue Shield, a hospital will charge you three times what they would charge Blue Shield.

Quick example: Blue Shield wanted me to have a sleep study done. I did. 3 hours taping me sleeping. The company charged 2500 dollars for 3 hours. Blue Shield paid only 660.

You can guess were I told the company to stick the rest of their bill. They get paid 220 dollars an hour, and, write off a huge bad debt.

Amazing what the system allows. Our local hospital is likewise willing to charge uninsured huge bills, vs. the Blue Shield agreed to payments, being about 1/4 of what the uninsured would pay.

I wonder why they can do this?

s

Back to the subject: Lions charging, and rifle selections.

Isn't a 458 win mag with a 500 grain bullet the wrong choice for close range lion work?

I thought that's why people like the Lott. More hydrodynamic shock, due to higher velocity, that cats are sensitive too?

If that's true, sounds like a 400 grain, or lighter bullet would have been a better choice in the 458 win mag.

Sounds like the hunter not only missed his target, but used the wrong cartridged rifle,
and the wrong weight bullet...

He should sue himself, since if he was expecting charging lions, as a professional hunter, he should have known that the caliber and bullet combination was not a good choice to stop a charging lion. I believe it's called contributory negligence on his part, and, if it is shown that it contributed to the injury he incured, may very well wipe out any possible award...

Can't remember if Kalifornia is a contributory negligence state that allows percentage, 51% or more ends suit, etc. Different states, different policies, and, I don't know if this suit is filed in Federal or State court, which can also vary the law applied...
s

[ 04-21-2003, 06:44: Message edited by: Socrates ]

Just to hard a new slant to this debate ie the real debate on stopping a lion with the TBBC and the law suit and not all this medical malpractice / insurance BS.

Firstly, it has been said on these forums that most PHs really don't get a lot of opportunities to actuall shoot DG ie it is a saleable commodity and is reserved for clients.

So assumming the "average" PH who hunts DG doesn't get to shoot many lions isn't it reasonable to assume that they will have a higher dependence on the claims made by manufacturers of premium DG bullets?

Most PHs would obviously have to rely on other PHs opinions, evidence of performance of clients bullets etc

Secondly, also consider that for the PH, the hunt isn't a holiday like it is for the client. It is a profession, a means of making a living (and often not a good "means" either), so getting value for hard spent dollars is a reasonable objective. Alleged failure of equipment below that of reasonable standards may not be acceptable.

Thirdly, does anyone actually know WHERE the lion was shot when it charged?

***

As said I do think on the basis of the reports so far printed, that the legal action does appear somewhat frivilous.

Isn't a TBBC often recommended for buffalo as well. Wouldn't such a bullet be a little too toughly constructed for ideal performance on lion?

[ 04-21-2003, 10:03: Message edited by: NitroX ]

I'm with Recono. I thought it was only my medical premiums going up in Kalifornia, by twice, in the last year. Actually 154 to 363, IIRC for PPO with Blue Shield. Sounds like the companies are on a scam again, and legislation may well be in order, and not just for doctors.

Back to picking a lion defense round:

http://african-hunter.com/458_watts___458_lott.htm

" Using Softpoint bullets on lion, the .458 Lott is in a whole different class to the .458 Win due to the higher velocity and the cat�s sensitivity to hydrostatic shock (to get a proper �explosive wound� effect due to hydrostatic shock, the velocity of a bullet needs to be above 2200fps). Sensibly loaded to moderate pressures the .458 Lott will drive a 500 grain bullet at 2300fps. You can get it higher, but then sticky extraction becomes a risk on a hot day and that just isn�t worth it. "

Looks like it's pretty common knowledge that the 458 Win wasn't a good lion round, with 500 grain bullets, hence the Lott, or Ackley.

Looks like the only way to get over 2200 fps with a 458 win is to drop to a 400 grain soft point.
According to Speer thier 400 grain Flat Soft point will go 2429 out of a 14 " barrel, with 82 grains, compressed, of AA 2230(Is that powder still made? I've got an old reloading book, # 13.)

http://www.federalcartridge.com/ammocat20.asp?act=choose&firearm=2&s1=1

Federal makes an anti-lion round, it looks like, for the 458 win mag. 400 grain TBBC at 2380.

I hope they fight this one. Looks like the guy picked the wrong round...

s

NitroX:

I have to think after going through this the guy just didn't do his homework, or he got caught without proper ammunition for the game at hand.

I guess the biggest advantage of the Lott is you can carry 500 grain bullets, softs if you want, like the BarnesX, or GS, and still have enough velocity to create hydrodynamic shock, in big cats.

s

Does anyone know whether this Rowher and his client were hunting lion that day, or did they simply get hunted by this lion?

Apparently, one of Rowher's clients has killed a lion, in 1999:

http://www.rolfrohwersafaris.com/trophy.html

H. C.

Hi guys. I hate to beat a dead horse here, but what the hell.

Although his writtings don't always hold that much credence with everyone on this board, I thought I'd post a quote that applies to today
s situation as much as it did 10,000 years ago when we were only armed with rocks and spears!

Here goes...

"Lions are hunted for the same reason people skydive, race cars, or, in extreme cases, play Russian roulette. They are hunted for the oldest of motives: the challenge of man against a fast, deadly animal on the animal's terms. When you pick up a rifle and take the first step on a lion hunt, you know that you are taking a fair chance of being maimed or killed. It is the clearest case of not just the ancient confrontation of man against beast, but also of man deliberately putting himself in harm's way. It is, in fact, man against himself."

Peter Hathaway Capstick- "Death in the Long Grass", pg 46, first edition

Aslong as an animal still has fresh blood in it's brain it can come for you and adrenaline can insure that.

HenryC470,
The Jan/Feb issue of the Safari magazine had an article about this attack. I read it but can't remember exactly but I think the lion was wounded by the client. I talked with Rolf at the SCI convention and finalized my buffalo hunt with him this July. I booked the hunt last year in Vegas. I will look for the issue and and post back.

Jim Miller

I'd like to hear Rolf's side of the story, prior to rushing to judgement...
s

Just out of interest how many of you guys have had bullets do strange things? I know I have with no logical explanation to be found.

Thanks, Todd. Ditto. I think a manual thyroid extraction would work well on some lawyers too. I'd rather be a cowboy truck driver some days. At least the scenery changes.

Todd:

The Florida Times Union (Jacksonville, FL) just published a very informative article demonstating that Florida malpractice claims AND payouts have been going down in recent years. Yet, doctors in Florida are refusing to treat patients until caps are put on "pain and suffering" awards, because, they say, lawsuits are causing malpractice rate increases when the rate increases have been inversely proportional to payouts. That's not real bright for supposedly educated people. Even worse, it appears that the ads that the doctors are putting in the paper stating that they are being driven out of practice by "out of control" verdicts are.... drum roll... being paid for by.... guess who... INSURANCE COMPANIES!

As to the PH debate. If someone can tell me what town and court the case is filed, I'll get a copy of the complaint and then we can all see what PH's allegations are. I'm sure it is public record. Should be interesting. And, if the suit is as bogus as the original comments of the PH's lawyer seem to make it, I'll offer free time to
Trophy Bonded to write a brief supporting a motion for sanctions against the PH and the Lawyer (not that they'd take or need my offer, but I'll certainly make it).

I still think this has to do with the worldwide refusal to accept personal responsibility, be it on the part of doctors, Sadaam, Bill Clinton, Newt or, sad to say, too many lawyers. Nothing is anybody's fault, it seems. I guess Flip Wilson had it right, "The devil made me do it!"

Just tonight I did something really stupid. I caught a rat in a trap in my garage. It "looked" dead as doo-doo. I released the spring off of the rat, and the s.o.b. awoke (or better, arose), running up my arm and jumping off of my shoulder. Scared the tinkle out of me. If the rat had bitten me, giving me rabies or something, whose fault was it? Nobody's but mine. If screwing up on something as triffling as a rat can be dangerous, you ought to be infinitly careful with 400 pounds of claws, teeth and muscle. As with the rat, until a lion's brain isn't connected to it's teeth, it is liable to bite the p-stink out of you.

If you want a lion to stop running, shoot the sucker in the brain, or, risk getting ate upon. I'll bet you dollars to donuts that as a part of PH licensing, the subject eat'ee was taught that the ONLY way to stop a charging animal was with a shot with a quality solid to the brain of the sucker. I doubt that there is enough of a whore in the PH business to deny that. I just don't believe the PH can get past summary judgment. Maybe some of the professionals who visit this board should offer their affidavits for the defense. Heck, let's dig up J.A. Hunter and get him to tell the judge that PH'ing is serious business. Maybe if I put Mr. Hunter's bones in my rat trap, he'll come alive, too????

[ 04-30-2003, 06:37: Message edited by: JudgeG ]

JudgeG, You certainly hit the nail on the head. I just dont understand the mentality. I guess it is just too easy to blame someone else rather than accept responsibility for many. I would be very interested in seeing the specifics of the case.

I knew and bought from Jack Carter when he first started to make and sell his Trophy Bonded Bear Claw Bullets! Hell, he sent me, and I weare, one of his numbered BearClaw belt buckles with my name on it!
His bullets "Always" did what you asked of them and the marrage of his bullets to Federal was made in heaven for the non-reloader!
All of us who have taken Lion or any other dangerous African game, "know" what could happen "if" we do not do everything correctly! I wonder if this guy is related to Mark Sullevan?
Vince

Actually, it seems that Mark Sullivan (aside from the ethics of encouraging wounded animals to charge) knows quite well that you must shoot a charging animal in the brain. Anyone who has seen his blood and guts videos can describe several incidents where buffalo (and at at least one hippo) continued to truck on, until the brain was hit. And that's after being hit (or better, near-missed) pretty close to the CNS with 8000 ft pounds of energy from his doubles.

I'll just plan to make the first shot count or then climb a big tree....

I've never had an African animal make a determined charge (other than a few "false charges by elephants, and a roan with broken shoulders that was "charging" with his front legs not working), so I don't claim that I could meet the test. I do know, however, that when I pop the cap on an animal, I have assumed a moral (and traditional) responsibility, and not without risk. If I've "created" a wounded animal, I'm damn sure going to submit myself to that duty (with the advice, safety instructions and backup of my PH, of course). Otherwise, I should'a stayed home and and got my thrills by watching Monica on Mr. Personality.

JudgeG
Bravo, well said!
Vince