Whats ever happened to the Great Hunter's rifles? I've seen one of Karamojo Bell's, but never any others. Names like Sutherland, Norton, Salmon, Rushby, Deaf Banks, etc.

Anyone have pictures?

Thanks

Minkman

This probably isn't considered to be one of the great hunters that you're refering to, but it's still interesting.

Theodore Roosevelt's double rifle is at the Frazier Arms Museum in Louisville, Kentucky.



“The Frazier collection contains some highly significant pieces,†Karcheski said. “We have the Holland and Holland double rifle presented by English lords as a gift to Theodore Roosevelt. He named it the ‘Big Stick,’ and took it on hunting trips to Africa and South America. In his journals, he talks about the roar from that rifle’s discharge being so fierce that he learned to fear its noise almost more than the charging elephants he was shooting at.â€

The highly engraved “Big Stick†is impressive. A 1909 Holland and Holland Royal Grade Double Rifle, the gun is at .500/.450 Nitro Express caliber – powerful enough to take down whatever wildlife Africa could throw at it. Its exquisite workmanship, accented with gold, made it a piece worthy of a museum, even before Roosevelt owned it.

http://www.kybiz.com/lanereport/issues/february03/biggame.html

Frazier Historical Arms Museum
http://www.frazierarmsmuseum.org/

-Bob F.

Thanks Bob, I forgot Teddy.

Is this the one they used in First Blood?

Minkman

I would ask the same thing adding Ruark and Hemmingway to the list...

Not only would I like to see the weapons they used and wrote about but, also trophy mounts, notes, personal belonings and any gear & equipment they used.

Regards,
Dave

Add Roualeyn Gordon Cumming, William Cornwallis Harris and perhaps the greatest of them all - Frederick Courteney Selous.
I think one of Selous' rifles was discussed here earlier.
S.

I read that Harry Selby's son & daughter use two of Bell's rifles (a Rigby 7x57 & a double 400 I believe), given to them by Robert Ruark. I recently saw a picture in Magnum Magazine of Fletcher Jameison's son holding his father's 500Jeff made famous in John Taylor's writings.

quote:

Originally posted by Minkman:
Thanks Bob, I forgot Teddy.
Is this the one they used in First Blood?
Minkman

Yes, it is.

-Bob F.

quote:

Originally posted by fla3006:
I read that Harry Selby's son & daughter use two of Bell's rifles (a Rigby 7x57 & a double 400 I believe), given to them by Robert Ruark. ....

Gail Selby & Harry Selby at Xugana airfield
in the Okavango Delta in the late 1970's.

The web site does not give a description, but the rifle in the photo sure looks like it could be a Rigby rifle in 7x57. I read the same article and I'd bet this is the 7x57 rifle.


Be sure to visit Gail Selby Wentink's web site at:
http://gabrimaun.tripod.com/index.html

The photo above was taken from this web site.

There are several hunting stories on Gail's site. Plus, info and stories about the family.

-Bob F.

Bob, it may be your original post I refer to. The story was Ruark was in London and went into Westley Richards' store where some of Bell's guns were on consignment as part of his estate settlement. The 7x57 Rigby is not thought to be the one Bell used earlier in Africa but one he obtained later, a takedown as I recall. Gave the guns to Harry to pass on to his kids, he is their godfather I believe.

Yep, that's pretty much what I have read also. I'm a Ruark fan so I read everything about him that I can find. (There are two excellent biographies of Ruark in print.) I believe the article I'm refering to was in a recent issue of the American Rifleman magazine. If I remember correctly, it briefly mentioned Gail and Mark Selby using a Rigby rifle that had belonged to Bell and was given to Mark by Robert Ruark. Mark Selby was Ruark's godson.

-Bob F.


Biographies of Robert Ruark:

A View from a Tall Hill: Robert Ruark in Africa
by Terry Wieland

Someone of Value: A Biography of Robert Ruark
by Hugh Foster

Seq

Selous used 3 4 bore muskets. Two are in london and one in the National Archives in Harare. He also used a number of .450's over the years. One in the Bulawayo Museum and one in the USA for sale

Roosevelt and Drake had one of Henry Morton Stanley's big singleshot's for sale a few years ago. My understanding is a museum here in the U.S. has it now.

In the early 1970's I lived in Salmon Idaho and got to know Elmer Keith. I saw a Jeffery 450/400 double that he stated once belonged to jim Corbett. Last I heard it was still in the Elmer Keith collection now owned by Elmer's son. It was a beautiful rifle.

CHEERS!

465H&H

Actually, TR's rifle was used in the movie IN THE BLOOD.

FIRST BLOOD featured an M-60, HK 91 and a few M-16's plus the well known hunter/outdoorsman Sylvester Stallone

DC300

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Seq

Selous used 3 4 bore muskets. Two are in london and one in the National Archives in Harare. He also used a number of .450's over the years. One in the Bulawayo Museum and one in the USA for sale

Ganyana - you can't just leave it at that "and one in the USA for sale" !!! By whom? How much? I'll bet if it's posted here, it won't be for sale for long (though it may be out of my league).

S.

To this day Mark Selby, Tanzania Game Trackers, uses the 450-400 and its engraved "To Mark Selby from your Godfather, Robt. Rouark" or something close to that..

I know where seveal other rifles are from the old boys but that has slipped my curmudgeon mind apparantly...Harry Manners still has his and and I think Joe Coogan has one of Harrys rifles....

seq and any others that are interested in (one of) Selous Farqueson's (by Gibbs of Bristol) Send me a PM. This rifle and others were advertised a while back in the collectors forum of AR (but they were not in the states then)

I recall reading an article by Joe Coogan in Petersen's Hunting roughly titled Selby's Last Safari in which a very wealthy American hunter
(I forget his name, but his family owns Wingmeade, the famous Stuttgart, AR duck hunting compound) arranged to take the final safari that Selby actually acted as PH on and at the end of this client bought Selby's .416 Rigby made famous by Ruark. If this is true Selby's Rigby is either in Stuttgart or Memphis.

quote:

Originally posted by Hugh W:
... a very wealthy American hunter
(I forget his name, but his family owns Wingmeade, the famous Stuttgart, AR duck hunting compound) ...

Frank Lyons... Joe worked for Frank for a while.

In my closet.

Just so we can set this straight. . . .
On page 83 of Boddington's Safari Rifles,
He states that Ruark gave Mark Selby a 450/400 double rifle. It was inscribed, "To Mark, from your uncle Bob". Robert Ruark was Mark Selby's godfather.

The only historical rifle I would ever care about would be that double. It would be worth the price of admission to hunt with Mark Selby Mark Selby Safaris just to get a chance to see and hold that rifle.

Damn, think of the great stories around the campfire. The history is right there gentlemen.

Fletcher Jamieson's Holland & Holland .500/450



The History

The rifle was first test fired at the Holland & Holland factory on the 8th of May 1902 and testing was completed on the 15th of May 1902. It was sold to Mr. Phelps who later sold it to Mr. Kirkley. Eventually Crawford Fletcher Jamieson acquired the rifle and it is then its prominence as a fine hunting weapon became evident. Fletcher Jamieson used the rifle to shoot many species of animals, accounts of which are recorded in John "Pondoro" Taylor's book, "African Rifles and Cartridges."

"African Rifles and Cartridges" was the best known of several books published by John Taylor and has become the recognised authority on big game hunting in Africa. The rifle is frequently referred to and examples are given throughout the book and features in most of its photographs with its trophies. The most dramatic account of this rifle's performance relates how two Cape Buffalo were killed outright with a single round.

The combination of Fletcher Jamieson and this Holland & Holland Royal contributed to Holland & Holland's fame as fine rifle and shotgun manufacturers. Fletcher Jamieson & his .500/450 Royal have been immortalised in "Äfrican Rifles and Cartridges" and have become part of Africa's folklore.


The Letter


(The letter above reads)

Zambezi Valley, 13th July 1934.

I also enclose a tail-hair of an Elephant which nearly cost me my life.

This rifle, No.17892 .500/.450 has been one of my best friends. She has pulled me through many an encounter with Elephants, Rhino and Buffalo. She is one of the most accurate rifles in the world and since being in my hands has achieved a very fine record. I am positive that as far as her record is concerned she is second to none. I have shot with her the following species of animals, Elephants, Rhino, Buffalo, Hippo, Leopards, Eland, Kudu, Sable, Roan, Impala, Warthog, Bush-pig, Crocodiles, Snakes, Hartebeest, Baboons, Duiker & Bush Buck. But I have used her mostly for Elephant, Rhino, Buffalo & Hippo, & find that she is all that one could with for. My battery of rifles consists of one Double Barrel .577 Express, One D.B. .500/.450 Express, one 6.5 Mannlicher Schonauer, and a 25/20 Winchester. This I consider as the most efficient battery of rifles any Big Game hunter could wish for. Whoever may be the proud possessor of this rifle after I am finished with it please treasure it for my sake.. ........

F C. Fletcher Jamieson. Big Game Hunter

The Rifle's Specifications

The rifle next appeared in the 1980's when Dr. Wright possessed the weapon. I obtained the rifle from Dr. Wright's Estate after it had been in a police armoury. On a business trip to the United Kingdom I took the rifle back to Holland & Holland to have it restored. Some five months later it returned in pristine condition, so much so that I had to carefully scrutinise the rifle to confirm it was the same weapon. It shoots and handles exactly as one would expect from a weapon manufactured by one of the world's finest manufacturers - Holland & Holland.

Holland & Holland Nitro Express Royal, Hammerless Sidelock, Double Cordite Rifle.

Calibre .500/.450, 70 grains Cordite and 365 grains Nickel coated bullet, Case 3 ¼"

Rifle No.17892

First test fired 8th May 1902

Finished at factory 15th May 1902

Length 15 + 14 ¾ + 15 5/16

Cast off 1/8 + 1/8 +1/16 +3/16

Weight of Rifle 9lb, 9 ½ ozs

Bend 2 + 1½

Pulls 4 + 5

We would like to acknowledge Fletcher Jamieson Jnr. for the kind use of the photographs

The reason many of these famous old rifles are so hard to find is because Alf owns them all!

A good friend of mine here in Denver owns John "Pondoro" Taylor's .450 #2 double rifle.

I've seen and held the rifle on several occasions. He is not shy about showing it and keeps it at his gun store. If anyone is interested in seeing it while here in Denver it can be arrainged. Drop me an E-mail or a PM I'll give you the contact information.

Oh and thre or four years ago he shot a 50 + inch buff with it in the Masai (Ridge & Taylor's old concesion) Now owned by Adam Clements. Warms my heart to know that the old girl is still earning her keep.

.

One of the reasons to own a 'vintage' rifle. They carry history in their steel.

Two or three came up locally a year or so ago for an Australian elephant hunter who hunted with Taylor. Went for quite reasonable prices too for those quick enough.

It would be impolite of me to name names, but I know of 2 Selous rifles in Zim, 1 in RSA and also the Alan Black (ex Kenya PH) double rifle made for him by Rigby.

Of them all the finest is the Alan Black Rigby and although I've only seen pictures of it, I'm in love with it........

A couple of photos of Harry Selby's .416 Rigby:






From an article a few years ago in American Rifleman magazine (I can't remember the specific issue). The NRA had this article on their web site back in 2003 but it is no longer online. I did save it as a Word 2000 (Windows) file. If you would like to read it, then here is the link to the file:
http://www.oqlaw.com/staff/bob/other/Rigby416-Selby.doc

-Bob F.

I'm still here and have my guns. MUUUHAHAHAHAHAH Charlie

Thad Scott has a Rigby 22 high power for sale advertised as having been owned by WDM Bell. If memory serves me, Thad has had quite a few guns through his shop from time to time that were once owned by some of the greats.

I've always been fascinated with such rifles, yes they do carry lots of history in them in those worn silver edges and dings and scratches. New/shiney guns are boring in comparison - they've lived no life, just sat in a gun case too much oftentimes.

BFaucett,

Thanks for the link to the NRA article.

Perhaps I am seeing it wrong but is that a trigger shoe on the trigger blade?

Rustam

quote:

Originally posted by RHB:
BFaucett,
Thanks for the link to the NRA article.
Perhaps I am seeing it wrong but is that a trigger shoe on the trigger blade?
Rustam

Yes, I think it is!

-Bob F.

Thank you, Bob.

I wonder if H.S. actually used one in the field.

Rustam

I can't thik of anything more dangerous to put on a DG rifle than a trigger shoe. But then I haven't been looking for one. USPSA/IPSC outlawed trigger shoes many years ago on competition guns because of the danger. On a DG rifle I can see the screws losening as they always seem to want to do and the shoe slipping down. If the shoe comes in contact with the trigger gaurd the rifle will not fire. If it happens based on Murphy's law it will happen when having to deal with a close range charge from something big and very PO'D.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by BFaucett:
This probably isn't considered to be one of the great hunters that you're refering to, but it's still interesting.

Theodore Roosevelt's double rifle is at the Frazier Arms Museum in Louisville, Kentucky.



“The Frazier collection contains some highly significant pieces,†Karcheski said. “We have the Holland and Holland double rifle presented by English lords as a gift to Theodore Roosevelt. He named it the ‘Big Stick,’ and took it on hunting trips to Africa and South America. In his journals, he talks about the roar from that rifle’s discharge being so fierce that he learned to fear its noise almost more than the charging elephants he was shooting at.â€

-Bob F.

Gentlemen, the double rifle shown in the picture above may have belonged to TR but it isn't "BIG STICK"! TR had two double rifles, both 500/450s, and both H&H rifles, but the rifle he named "BIG STICK" has the presidential seal inlayed in the left side of the butt stock in silver, and about the size of a US silver dollar, and is in the private collection of an American collector. This rifle was featured in the George Butler film "IN THE BLOOD"! The rifle was loaned to Tyssen Butler, for a hunt with Robin Hurt.

The rifle shown here is plainly not "BIG STICK"! It is most likely the rifle held by TR's son Kermit in the picture of TR, and his son sitting on top of a Cape Buffalo they had just killed, on their hunt in 1909!

quote:

Originally posted by DC300:
Actually, TR's rifle was used in the movie IN THE BLOOD.

FIRST BLOOD featured an M-60, HK 91 and a few M-16's plus the well known hunter/outdoorsman Sylvester Stallone

DC300

Nice call. True.
The original story in the Book _First Blood_ by David Morrell, 1972, took place in the hills of Eastern Kentucky. This was not Hollywood enough, so for the Stallone movie, the setting became Oregon, but they filmed it in Canada, Hope, B.C., being the location for much of the filming.

Mac brings up an interesting point, about two TR H&H .500/.450's, and I will check that out.

I missed the Stanley 4-bore at Roosevelt&Drake in Murray, Kentucky, it sold right out from under me before I had a chance! I was on my way to see it with check book ready!

Now, back to the thread ...

Bell's 318 W.R. Made by Thomas Bland. I own this one. It shoots like a house on fire, but with 185 grain bullets. I found out that Bell had Westley Richards re-regulate it for 185 grainers when he resigned himself due to poor health, to Corriemoillie, hunting in the highlands for Stag. This is the same gun he was shooting birds out of the air with in the Lado Enclave.

I have late Ken Randalls (Harry Selbys older cousin) .375 H&H in my gun safe

Ken Randall third from left;

Like him or not, Mark Sullivan has "Def" Banks old 577.

He bought it from George Caswell in 1990, I think Mark told me he paid around 10K for it.

He told me it had the ugliest beavertail forearm on it and a ghost ring rear site. He told me he "englished it up" to make it look right.

He really is a pretty cool cat even if you dont agree with the way he hunts!

Ed