One of the reasons the old-timers could use doubles was that they always had a gunbearer to reload one of the doubles.

But, on your own, there is no way to get 4 shots out of a double as fast as a bolt. And when in a real charge and have expended the first two without the desired results, you are in deep doo-doo.

I could never chew gum and walk at the same time, and after I fired the two out of the double, the game was pretty much finished.

If there is any reason to use a bolt instead of a double, it is because of the firepower that may be needed when things really go south.

You knock down an 'phunt [or buff or whatever] and it gets up, while one or more of its companions decide to whip some butt. Between shooting at the wounded one, and another that goes down, and then blaze away at the ones that are charging to try to scare them off, and 4 down and one up are all gone, in less than XX seconds (who is watching their watch while all this is going on?).

Even if you drop the one that is charging, there may be more. Reload......, damnit, reload........

NE, there ya go again, talkin' about us bolt-action trash. There is only one thing that I can to this whole mess, when you are using a long throw action, you will slow down considerably. The short or even medium throws are purty quick because of less movement. Practice with the long throw big boomers and then report back.

NE 450 No2, you are absolutely right! Allen would be the ultimate test bed for this thing! It will never happen, because Allen can shoot his rifles in his sleep, better than most can talk about how well the can shoot! He has quality rifles, made by a man who understands DGR bolt rifles as well as anyone who ever lived! Allen has learned his drill, till it comes naturally to him, like batting his eyes, he doesn't have to think about it! As he told me one time, a couple years ago, he has this down pat, and doesn't think the percieved advantage would be worth the effort of learning a new system to the level he already has with his bolt rifles.

That being said, I believe people like Allen, are the only ones who could prove the answer to this question, simply because, they are hell bent to get the most out of what ever they try, and who will spend the time, and money to get that level down pat. Not to pat my own back, but I am pritty well versed in the use of large bore bolt rifles myself, and I have a hell of a lot of time behind them, as well as big bore doubles, and this is the only way anyone will know the truth! That is, if he is fluent in the use of both, he will get the answer easily, if he is only fluent in one, he will certainly have more confidence in the one he knows best! These are the reasons these type strings will never be settled. The man who has only used the bolt will go that way in any discussion, and the man who has only used doubles, will go that way in any discussion. Here is the kicker! The man who is very good with both will also go with the double for the purpose stated here, a CLOSE IN CHARGE! The problem is, this is only evident to "HIM", and doesn't convence those who don't find it out for themselves, simply because he tells them of his findings! In other words, we are wasteing our breath here!

475Guy
I have extensive experience with bolt rifles, both hunting and in competition. This includes several big bores with long bolt throws, such as Weatherby magnums up to the 416 WBY I owned. [shot the 378 and 460's of friends, just never owned them] I never noticed much difference nor had any problems with the longer bolt throw. It is all a matter of knowing your rifle [whatever the type] and the proper manipulation of it.

Another point that has not been stressed is that a bolt rifle can [and some do] fail to function. Whether this caused by a faulty rifle or is shooter induced does not matter, a double is much more certain to give you two shots. It could be THE difference.
In the lion charge video... would not they possibly be better off if ALL of them had doubles?

NE, I hear ya. That other stuff in the body of the post was for the other doubters and wasn't meant for you, only the first line. When I still had my Merkel, I practiced furiously with it at 25 yds. and under to see if I could get off two aimed shots as fast as I could. This was a bit easier than with my Ruger RSM as all I had to do pull it down under recoil and take a flash sight picture and slap the second trigger. I'm sorry I didn't separate the bodies of my post.

475Guy
Understood, no offense taken.

Random thoughts:

The truth is - and it's been pointed out on this thread already - that the vast majority of professional hunters throughout history have not used double rifles for either culling purposes or to back up clients with. Most have used bolt actions, which is true to this day.

As I've said before, I prefer bolt-guns, but there's no doubt in my mind that a practiced, experienced, cool-headed man with a double can get off that second shot faster than can a good man with a good bolt action rifle. But I don't believe the 'edge' is as great as some poeple might like to believe. In fact, there are those riflemen who are faster and more precise for a follow-up shot with a bolt gun compared to many guys who shoot doubles. I've seen this demonstrated first-hand myself.

So just buying a double and then booking a safari isn't enough. Unless you have the physical gifts and are willing to put in the time to really learn the double and become truly proficient in its use, you're better off sticking with a bolt action.

It seems as though a lot of guys have this one, big fantasy of ironing-out a buffalo at point-blank range during a charge. But in reality - for the vast majority of buffalo hunting situations - a scoped bolt-gun has a solid performance edge from every standpoint of consideration. The trouble with the bolt action is, it's not as romantic as the double. Workhorses seldom are though of in the same light as the showponies........

AD

NE, there ya go again, talkin' about us bolt-action trash. There is only one thing that I can say about this whole mess, when you are using a long throw action, you will slow down considerably. The short or even medium throws are purty quick because of less movement. Practice with the long throw big boomers and then report back.

Oh, I don,t know Mac. Allen must be an adventuresome fella.
He just might want to experience the adventure of a double rifle. Test the theory for himself.

The TRUTH is out there.

N E 450 No2
You know well that your overcomplicated overengineered is even worse than a normal bolt gun

The best gun for buffalo charge is a rifle drilling


/ JOHAN

Will has some very valid points here: "If there is any reason to use a bolt instead of a double, it is because of the firepower that may be needed when things really go south.

You knock down an 'phunt [or buff or whatever] and it gets up, while one or more of its companions decide to whip some butt. Between shooting at the wounded one, and another that goes down, and then blaze away at the ones that are charging to try to scare them off, and 4 down and one up are all gone, in less than XX seconds (who is watching their watch while all this is going on?).

Even if you drop the one that is charging, there may be more. Reload......, damnit, reload........"

I remember reading an Elmer Keith Rtickle once in which he wrote of facing elephants with a PH and I think at least one other man. The PH insrructed them to fire into the air to scare the threatening beasts away. But Keith stated that he refrained from firing his double so that they wouldn't all be facing a charge with empty rifles.

Allen...random thoughts
Double rifle vs. bolt rifle...
Good post mostly true.
Those of us that are experienced double rifle users, and have become double rifle advocates, you called us a "practiced cool headed man with a double" were once upon a time "practiced cool headed men with a bolt rifle".
We tried a double rifle and have found it better.
I suggest this... and you are the perfect person for this test, you have done lots of hunting, and you are going to continue to do lots of hunting. You use quality bolt rifles, are a good shot and understand ballistics. [To the other posters, this is not a snide comment to Allen, I know these things to be true].
You owe it to your Bolt Rifle Tras....er ahhh I mean Brethren to acquire a quality double rifle and use it for a year or two and give us a report.
I suggest you do as I did and hunt pigs with it a fair amount to learn the "manual of arms" for a double rifle, and then use it in Africa on DG.
Just handling, or shooting a double rifle a couple of times does not really show you its real potential.
After I had used them for a year or two I realized just how good a hunting rifle they are and what advantages they offer.
Allen think about it and give it a try...
But BEWARE you just might have to join the Double Rifle Shooters Society.

Obviously a topic that is generating a lot of interest - again. For the question posed, MAKE MINE A DOUBLE !!

Last year I had a chance to fire a double rifle in competition. The time to reacquire the target and get off an aimed shot is surprisingly quicker than with a bolt action. I've trained myslef with a bolt to shoot and not drop the stock from my shoulder while I chamber another round. Not easy, but certainly trainable. Still, a double would be my choice every time for the situation described.

If the opportunity presents itself, try it sometime and see what you think for yourself. Shoot against a stopwatch, bolt vs. double, and compare. I have, and it was illluminating.

Third and fourth shots will be slower with a double, though not by much. But I seriously doubt that will matter. Not much chance of having time to find that out, if it's a for real charge.

For sport hunters, seems to me that the real challenge in a charge would be mental. Accepting that HE'S COMING might take a few fractions of a second. Oh well, that's my opinion.

I am tempted to post it, but it was received from someone else, so don't blame me.

What is "the DG quiz?"

You need to take the DG quiz.

Well this should ruffle some feathers....

1. Although I have no double, I would love to hunt buff with one. And I also would like to have a Rolls Royce to drive.

2. Although I have never personally experienced a buff charge, on all the ones I have seen on video, the buff was never at a full "38mph" wide-open run, as if he were stampeding in the savannah. The close-range charges on video were much slower, due to the bull's acceleration lag.

3. To choose a rifle for hunting based on one criteria - its slight advantage in a close-quarters dangerous-game death charge, is somewhat akin to choosing a new vehicle based on its feature of allowing you to escape quickly if the car is suddenly submerged in icy water. For verification, ask our host, Saeed, how often he has had to stop close charges in his 100+ buffalo.

I think our perceptions of DG hunting are sometimes affected more by the "thought I was gonna die" magazine stories than by our own experience.

Runnin' and duckin'....

Rick.

Read a few years ago that at least one gunsmith has converted the type I BAR semi auto to handle .458 WCF. Might solve the buffalo and lion charge problem - but not in Pennsylvania where semiautos are barred !!!

Gentlemen,

If a buffalo charges you from a distance, it really matters not what you are using, as long as you shoot it well and brain him with your FIRST shot.

The second shot will be shot instinctively, and the chances of it braining the buffalo is very iffy.

If a buffalo charges you from very close quarters, you will be doing a "point and shoot", and, again, this really depends on how will you are able to do it.

I have always used a bolt action rifle, and I will continue to use it.

The best way of avoiding a charge is to make sure your first shot is deadly. I know, we cannot always guarantee this. Also, I know a number of people who have been charged by unwounded buffallo. These are mostly cows, and charge from such a close distance in the long grass that both hunter and PH have to shoot from the hip.

Luckily, in all the instances I have heard of, the buffalo did not turn around and press its charge, hence no major damage is done. If it did, it really makes no difference what type of rifle you have, you WILL get hurt.

Craig has a 470 double by C.F. Andrews. It is a boxlock rifle that was made in London in the 20's if I recall. I know he likes this rifle but I am not sure how often he actually uses it.

What does Craig Boddington have to say about all of this?

I understand that his personal dangerous game rifle is a Rem 700 LH rebarreled to 458 Lott. (not a joke, just repeating some information that I believe to be accurate.)