Folks,

My rather dated African mammal guide confines the Roosevelt sable to the Shimba hills in Kenya. A quick look on these pages shows Roosevelt sable turning up over much of south east Africa. Is this just marketing or has there been some more research done since my guide book was published?

Thanks,
Dean

Dean,

SCI only recognizes the Roosevelt sable in Tanzania and all the entries in my SCI record books are from the Selous and Kilembero.

Edmund Heller did in fact identify the species in the Shimba Hills of Kenya.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by maki:
Folks,

My rather dated African mammal guide confines the Roosevelt sable to the Shimba hills in Kenya. A quick look on these pages shows Roosevelt sable turning up over much of south east Africa. Is this just marketing or has there been some more research done since my guide book was published?

Thanks,
Dean

Not just marketing. I believe they have done DNA tests linking them to Roosevelt sable.

http://www.scirecordbook.org/r...velt-sable-antelope/

Here is link to SCI Roosevelt Sable.

Thanks for the info guys. I must be getting old and cynical. I thought any smallish, brownish sable was getting called a Roosevelt to help sales .

Dean

They have good numbers of Roosevelt Sable in northern Mozambique and the one taken are certainly not smallish or brown. Quite impressive in fact. But then again all mature Sable are that.

Dene

This information (copied below) from the recognised XPERTS will explain the total specie distribution

Cheers, Peter
-------------------------

The initial grouping of the Sable antelope sub-specie was made in 1971 on the grounds of their external appearances and geographical distribution and not on DNA and DNS testing.

It was only is 2002 and before new evidence of the Giant Sable of Angola were discover, that a German and Danish scientist through genetic testing, established that there are three Sable sub-species in Africa.

They were namely the Western Tanzanian Sable (Hippotragus niger kirkii), the South Eastern Kenyan, Eastern Tanzanian and Northern Mozambique Sable (Hippotragus niger roosevelti) and lastly the Southern African, Botswana, Namibian, Zambian and the Southern parts of Tanzanian Sable. (Hippotragus niger niger)

quote:

Originally posted by Balla Balla:
Dene

This information (copied below) from the recognised XPERTS will explain the total specie distribution

Cheers, Peter
-------------------------

The initial grouping of the Sable antelope sub-specie was made in 1971 on the grounds of their external appearances and geographical distribution and not on DNA and DNS testing.

It was only is 2002 and before new evidence of the Giant Sable of Angola were discover, that a German and Danish scientist through genetic testing, established that there are three Sable sub-species in Africa.

They were namely the Western Tanzanian Sable (Hippotragus niger kirkii), the South Eastern Kenyan, Eastern Tanzanian and Northern Mozambique Sable (Hippotragus niger roosevelti) and lastly the Southern African, Botswana, Namibian, Zambian and the Southern parts of Tanzanian Sable. (Hippotragus niger niger)

So according to this, the specie in Southern Tz (niger, niger) is different from the specie in Northern Mozambique (roosevelti)? As these two areas are potentially adjacent, one could assume that the Selous or the Niassa ecosystems have both sub-specie and one would need a DNA test to confirm this before entering into the record books.

quote:

Eastern Tanzanian and Northern Mozambique Sable (Hippotragus niger roosevelti)

The sable taken in eg Rungwa (central/eastern Tz) is being classified as a roosevelti? I don't think so.

quote:

Originally posted by Balla Balla:
Dene

This information (copied below) from the recognised XPERTS will explain the total specie distribution.

They were namely the Western Tanzanian Sable (Hippotragus niger kirkii), the South Eastern Kenyan, Eastern Tanzanian and Northern Mozambique Sable (Hippotragus niger roosevelti) and lastly the Southern African, Botswana, Namibian, Zambian and the Southern parts of Tanzanian Sable. (Hippotragus niger niger)

As far as I am aware the Roosevelt Sable inhabits the east African coastal belt beginning in the southern part of Kenya
into Tanzania where they can be found in pockets along the coastal belt and a concentration of the species in the Selous and possibly in the northern part of Mozambique.
This 'coastal' belt could probably be considered not to exceed 300km - sable beyond the belt are no longer Roosevelti.

It's all a bit beyond me,

Basically there are so many different opinions around that we can always choose the one that suits us best.

I am more inclined to go along with the Xperts whom have done the testing. At the end of the day we have to realise that species travel mingle and procreate so the pool becomes somewhat diluted.

If we are to believe the Xperts we all are (everyone living human) related to the (liitle san bushman) people from Africa.

Cheers, Peter

I've taken Sable in Niassa (Northern Moz.) and Moyowosi (Northern TZ) and they both look alike to me. There both black with white markings, good body and horn size (40" and 39")I considered them both Roosevelt's, but I guess DNA is the only way to tell for sure.

quote:

Originally posted by Alaska Hunter:
I've taken Sable in Niassa (Northern Moz.) and Moyowosi (Northern TZ) and they both look alike to me. There both black with white markings, good body and horn size (40" and 39")I considered them both Roosevelt's, but I guess DNA is the only way to tell for sure.

I belive the one you took in Moyowosi (which is in Western Tanzania) should be a Common sable, not Roosevelt. In TZ Roosevelts found in Selous and some open areas close to Selous only.

In six weeks of hunting them, I saw the north end of one sole sable as he was heading south, so I am certainly no expert, but my understanding is the same as that of TANZ-PH.

The picture on the bottom right of the SCI page cited by TANZ-PH is my hunting partner and bro-in-law. It was taken in the Selous in September 2001, about a week after the 9/11 twin towers disaster, while we were both hunting Lion. This was the first day of the safari if I recall correctly. I already had two Sable from Zim and didn't realize this was a sub-species or I would also have taken a Roosevelt Sable. Been kicking myself ever since.
CORRECTION: Looks like the website is set-up to rotate the photos each time the page is opened!


Thanks TANZ-PH. A good example of the usefulness of the record book.

"Specie" is money, specifically coins.

When speaking about animals. the proper words are "species" and "subspecies." Both words are both singular and plural.

The species "pool" cannot be diluted by individuals traveling, mingling or procreating because there is only one species -- Hippotragus niger. The three recognized types of sable antelope are subspecies.

Some hybridization may happen along the boundaries of two or more subspecies, but subspecies usually evolve because they are geographically isolated from others of the same species.

Below is from Wikipedia:

"Note that the distinction between a species and a subspecies depends only on the likelihood that in the absence of external barriers the two populations would merge back into a single, genetically unified population. It has nothing to do with 'how different' the two groups appear to be to the human observer."

Bill Quimby

Hi Bill

Thanks for the review ...

If you are (keen to follow up direct) and discuss the species issue then feel free to visit booth #6 in the "Trails end” pavilion as Phil Minnaar will be there and he has written a good article on the subject for formal release soon.

Phil is manning the PHAZA booth

Cheers, Peter

Glad to see I'm not the only one a bit confused by subspecies distribution. As posted above, they are beautiful whatever you call them

Dean

Bill,
I appreciate your post, very interesting.

As a side note, I now understand why SCI has divided animals into a bunch of different specie - it make them a bunch of coin!

quote:

Originally posted by SBT:
Bill,
I appreciate your post, very interesting.

As a side note, I now understand why SCI has divided animals into a bunch of different specie - it make them a bunch of coin!

It also has made a bunch of coin for outfitters, PHs, taxidermists, booking agents, hoteliers, airline execs and only God knows who else.

Every time SCI creates a new record-book category, there are members who rush off to collect the animal ...

Bill Quimby