In the February, 2004 issue of Accurate Rifle magazine, author Jungle Jim Scott argues that a bolt action rifle is superior to a double for stopping a buffalo charge. According to Mr. Scott's argument, a charging buffalo travels at 38 m.p.h. According to Mr. Scott's calculations, a bolt action rifle gives the hunter an additional 28.6 yards to stop a buffalo charge because of the extra cartridge capacity, and therefore a bolt rifle is superior to a double in case of a charge.

Although I understand Mr. Scott's reasoning, I disagree with his analysis. Buffalo are seldom in a full blown charge from 75 or 100 yards out. They may walk, trot or even run closer to get a better look. But they may stop and think things over before starting a real charge, or the may turn away. Only at truly close range, such as less than 25 yards, would I consider an oncoming buffalo as in full charge mode. And at very close range, a bolt gun is essentially a single shot because the time it takes to work the action is greater than the time it takes the buffalo to reach the hunter. In contrast, if a double rifle is used, it only takes a second pull of the trigger for that second close-in shot, doubling the hunter's firepower for close-in work.

Don't we sometimes get a little hung up on what to carry in case of a buffalo charge, lion charge, elephant charge, T-Rex charge (sorry, got carried away).
I'm no expert, having not hunted Buff yet, but I just love this constant drumbeat of which is best to use in a charge. From what I read here and from talking to experienced buff hunters, a charge is exceedingly rare and probably wouldn't happen if the first shot is a good one. In this light my opinion is that you should shoot what you shoot best, be it a bolt gun or a double rifle.
Of course, the real answer is that most people simply can't afford a double gun, even of the most modest bargain basement type. Does this mean we should not hunt buff if someone insists that only a double is sufficient in case of a charge? Of course not! That is what a well armed and seasoned PH is for.
Now, I've talked to Mr. Wolf, who was gored severely by a buffalo a couple years ago in Zimbabwe and was the subject of much discussion on this board (and others) at the time. He emphatically stated that when he goes after buff again, he will be carrying a double, as his bolt gun was far too slow for a follow up shot at the ranges the buff charged from. His biggest problem? A PH that wasn't by his side to back him up when needed. - Sheister

Since I have no plans to hunt with anything but a bolt action rifle, I guess I'll be stuck with one in-hand if a charge ever comes about one day.

I'm not worried about that eventuality one way or the other. If it happens, I'll deal with it.........

AD

There are many ways a bolt rifle is superior to a double, but when seconds count a double is faster, PERIOD!

If a buffalo can run 38mph, that equates to about 56fps. I'm not sure how long it takes for a buff to get up to speed from a standing start but I'm imagine it would be less than the 25yds (75ft) of distance between him and the hunter.
IMO, at that short of a distance, you're only going to get one well aimed shot so it makes little difference what type gun you are carrying. Even with a double, you still must pull the gun down from recoil, switch triggers and get back on target...which will be at the end of your gun barrels in about 2 seconds, maximum.

500grains,

I can�t agree with you more! Yours is a very sound reasoning!

But imagine that this buffalo doesn�t stop at the second shot?! Wouldn�t you love to have a possible third (or even a fourth) shot?

It�s my firm believe that it all depends on the actual situation. There will be times when one would be better with a double and others when a magazine bolt action rifle may make the difference!
The real problem is that you can�t change rifles according to the situation! You have to carry and use what ever the rifle you fill the most comfortable (and that you are the most proficient)with.

B.Martins

Of course all of that is true, but you have the same thing to contend with on a bolt rifle, plus you have to operate the mechanism.

The probabilty of an animal getting to you in the difference in time to operate the bolt gun versus the double are no doubt infinitesimal, but that's not the question.

The double is faster, which equals better in this particular situation.

I would love to see someone who is proficient with a double and conversly with a bolt gun stand side by side and see who is actually faster with two accurately placed shots at say, 25yds. I bet the bolt gun isn't much different in the speed department from the double.

I've seen bolt action rifles that were ready to fire again after comming out of recoil when being handled by a pilot who knew what he was doing. What more can be done with eigther rifle?

When seconds count, with a double the second shot is definitely faster!
But what about the situation when you need a third or a fourth, or even a fifth shot??? Aren�t they (at least the third and fourth) faster with a bolt rifle?

As with many others things in life there aren�t single ideal solutions! You have always to chose and compromise!

B.Martins

Up close and personal a double is the best rifle one can have, and I have seen its usefullness inside the 10 ft circle, that is probably its only redemming feature, but its a good one...

You cannot work a bolt in the 10 ft. circle, your hammered....If you can stop the charge out there a ways then the bolt gun is fine and I would hope that you could, but Jungle Jim is full of what ifs, equasions, and mathamatics and that stuff is not all that usefull in the short rows, in other words he is full of ca ca......

I thought the principal benefit of a double was two complete rifles in one package...near perfect redundancy. I won't argue with the other opinions 'cause I haven't been there but reliablilty impresses me more than firepower.

A bolt-gun or double is only as fast and as effective as the guy who's standing behind it.

AD

Double: bang-bang----------bang-bang-----------bang-bang



Bolt action: bang---bang---bang---bang---bang



Two guys with bolt rifles: bangbang---bangbang---bangbang etc.



I think I'll take two guys with bolt action rifles. Seriously.





(Almost forgot to ask - are we talking about push feed doubles or CRF doubles? )

My 1st buffalo hunt is coming up & I will be using a bolt gun (only because I can't afford a good double). Besides the relability factor, nothing is as fast as a dbl. for those 1st two shots. I have done this many times shooting SS shotguns in cowboy action. Same idea, same mechanics & reloading a double can be very very fast. If I could afford it, make mine a double for fast & furious shooting.

I've never hunted buffalo (they're on the list), however...

When I was deer hunting this year, I had the opportunity to fire two shots from my 300 H&H at my buck. He was standing when I fired the first shot. He dropped dead as I fired the second shot, which missed because he was going down literally as I fired the shot. In fact, I honestly believed until I gutted him, that the second shot dropped him. He covered 50 yards in this time.

To put this into context, my buddy told me later that he heard the first shot, and assumed it was me because of the location. However, he said the second shot came so fast, that he honestly thought it was someone shooting a semi-auto < !--color--> , and it couldn't be me, since I had a bolt.

Two shots, as fast as I could rack the bolt and get back on target. The deer still covered 50 yards.

Make mine a double.

No body knows how they are going to react in a charge, unless they experience one, or more.

If you have enough presence of mind, it is best to wait til the last second, which is much, much easier said than done.

If that is the case, a double is the very best. But that doesn't mean you're dead if you don't use one.

If you have a double, wait til the last second and pull both triggers. By the time you recover from the recoil, either the buff will be dead or you will be. Problem solved.

Some of these replies are really choice. I was going to say something flippant about taking the Buff's credit card so he couldn't charge in the first place but I think that's already been brought up by someone faster than me in a previous thread. The only double I shoot is my O/U for quail which leads me to ask "How many people hunt quail with a bolt gun?" Same scenario- close quarters, quick follow-up shots needed. Hell if they made a 470 Nitro in an automatic THAT would be the ideal Buff gun.

Simplicity might also play a part when you figure in the human element. The average dude dealing with something for the first time has less chance screwing up pulling two triggers than working a bolt in between.



I got asked to cull some scrub bulls alone in an area of thick bush that had put the fear into the property owner-and of course anyone he talked to.

I thought to myself "I could get killed doing this by myself and look like a real idiot".



Trying to keep fuckupable variables to a minimum I kept arriving back to the double as the best choice in my mind, much to my dissappointment since I didn't own a double.





Karl.

How about a bolt action double

I'm curious if any of you double shooters have some video of two quick aimed shots a reload and two more quick aimed shots that I could put up on my site. The double should be a big bore double that generates some recoil such as the 470,465 or 500 double. If you could have targets that explode or show a definate hit (water filled milk jugs).
Take care,
Dave

.

I got my doubles for hunting DG as I like to get close, and if push comes to shove I feel a double is far superior to any other rifle. [Watch Mark Sullivans videos and tell me a bolt rifle would be better. ] I was prepared to except what ever other short commings using a double rifle might bring when shooting game in a noncharge situation.
In order to get familar with the use of a double rifle I have used them for almost all of my hunting for the last 6 years. Many times in situations most people would consider a double rifle totally unsuitable, such as spot and stalk black bear hunting, and caribou hunting [with an iron sighted 450/400 3 1/4"]. What I have discovered is that a double rifle is not only not a handicap, but that it is superior to a bolt rifle for any game taken out to at least 150 yards. [This is comparing rifles of like caliber and the same type of sights i.e. iron doubles to iron bolt rifles and scoped doubles to scoped bolt rifles] Why only to 150 yards? Because that is the longest distance I have shot game with a double to date. I did not set out to prove this, I just discovered it.
I am simply reporting what I have learned.

This "campfire" topic is as old as time itself....

The truth is that there is no "one better than the other" for all the variables involved in stopping a charging buffalo - or any DG for that matter.

IMO the closest we will get to the truth is from a poll of all existing DG professional hunters that use or have used both in that situation!

Personally, I believe in bolts. But I have never shot a double - didn't need to and never had the urge

From my experience discussing the subject with many active ph's, the outcome would be in favour of the bolt IMO.

Happy hunting!

Most PH's of today have never owned a double, so how would they know?

I'm not totally convinced that a double rifle can get 2 aimed shots...read it again....2 "aimed" shots much faster than an experienced shooter using a bolt-action. By the time an experienced shooter has recovered from recoil the bolt has made it's trip back and forth and the sights are back in line...takes practice but it works.

The main benefit I see for the double rifle is the first shot will probably be quicker than with most bolt-actions....the ergonomic advantage of a double, assuming it fits, are undeniable. A charge instigated at close range is really the biggest danger as I expect that one shot will be it no matter what type of rifle you carry...that's one of the reasons you should not hunt dangerous game alone.

You have to be kidding! Two aimed shots from a double no faster than two from a bolt. This is like the Twilight Zone.

Ray:

I don't know but you didn't seem to express your usual calm reasoning from an expert "who has been there" in your last post when you said the poster was full of "caca". I assume that's a Swahili or Shona or Matabele word?)

I almost bought a double and the only reason I didn't was that I couldn't get a definitive word (I didn't know about this forum then)as to whether the DB in 375 H&H would be accurate enough to shoot plains game at 60-100 yard ranges.(I could tell you today because today I know better but some big DB manufacturers then with offices in my city and to whom I talked gave me an uneasy feeling that they never "had been there" and really didn't know. It puzzled me ever since that a manufacturer getting tens of thousands of dollars for its guns couldn't hire people who knew how to talk to prospective customers on the basis of their own real experience. I bought a factory bolt action and it served very well - but I always knew then and afterwards that if that buff had stayed on his feet and come for me I would have preferred the smooth "1-2" shots of the double.(I carried bird hunting doubles in the US and was perfectly familiar with breaking and reloading a double) It happened that I broke a buff's shoulder at about 30-35 yards distance and he lost all interest in me after that but I sure have wondered more than once - what if he came for me because I didn't hurt him badly enough? That smooth second shot (and never losing the sight picture except from recoil and not having to do anything else like jacking a new cartridge in) from a double would be nice, I would imagine. I( bet if you commented on the pros and cons of a double for use also on plains game at ranges over 50 yards you would be giving valuable information to the first time hunter who wants to bring only one gun)

How many people hunt Cape Buffalo all alone?

Show of hands, please?

So unless my count is incorrect, there will be at least two rifles trying to bring down that Cape Buffalo, right? Unless you split up and try to surround it and it charges one and the other is in the line of fire so neither can shot safely, which I don't think many people do, either.

I think the natives have it right:
bangbangbangbangbangbangbangbangbangbangbangbangbangbangbangbangbangbangbangbangbang

AK-47, full auto.

Back to semi-serious. Does it really matter which is �Best�? We always seem to surround �Best� with Heraldic Angels trumpeting and the sublime glow of the light of God�s Blessing backlighting the �Best� as it stands proudly upon it�s columnar (Ionic or doric, your pick) pedestal.

Best stoppper. Best binocular. Best plains game rifle. Best safari boot. Best condom to take on Safari. Like whatever is second best is confined to the dank, smelly dark alleys of failure and will cause you untold grief, financial ruin, heartache and probably cause your immediate and untimely demise.

Apparently, and I only know this from hearsay, lots of buffalo are taken every year by lots of different hunters using all kinds of different action types � bolt, double, and gasp! � even lever actions. They use lots of different calibers, lots of different bullet brands, weights and internal constructions. And almost all of them return home safely. Upon casual reflection, it seems that the first shot is the most important. And that sometimes the buffalo cooperates and sometimes it doesn�t. And that if it doesn�t and you are cool enough to put a second shot into the CNS, the buffalo suddenly changes it�s mind and gets cooperative real fast. And if not � that is, if you can�t get a CNS hit on the second or fifth or tenth shot, you is in a heap of Sh*t with any kind of action, bullet weight or brand.

I�ll stick with my tag line and let someone else argue the infinitesmal. Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery. Hit the target, all the rest is twaddle*

(Twaddle � archaic Nineteenth century term loosely translated as bullsh*t )

Johan:

I don't know about most PHs but my PH carried a 470 Nitro double. There are others better qualified to comment than me but any PH carrying a bolt action rifle while on hunt for DG must be on some kind of budget hunt. He is there to back up the client and it was always a source of moral comfort to eye those huge 470 cartridges on my PH's belt as I followed him. BTW, we crept up to a small waterhole in early morning and a cow suddenly came out of the brush and eyed me and stamped her hoofs. A few seconds later a bull came out and turned to charge me. The PH said "Take him!". I did. The cow turned and ran off. She just as easily might have also charged and the PH would have had to stop her while I dealt with the bull alone. It was a "field condition" where neither the PH nor I were thinking about a "trophy" but in saving our lives. Don't be too glib about what can happen in the bush.it doesn't always work out that client shoots and PH kills and we all have photos. That's why good outfitters and their PHs try to guard against the unexpected - but new hunters should not count on the PH "saving their bacon". they should know how to shoot offhand and forget using aiming sticks.(Who will hold them for you when nyati is coming over? Our unarmed trackers were already back in the mopane scrub)

Some PH's use double rifles and some use bolt guns...When the proverbial 'caca hits the fan' a big bullet aimed is better than an amateur missing...All cannot afford a double.
One also hopes a Ph will be there if caca happens and also the Ph hopes if the worst happens a client will save him and shoot straight and take out the animal on top of him...
A story fom a shared camp...One of my hunting buddies was sharing a camp in the Selous...In the evening there was a buzz among the boys...He spoke to his gunbearer who told him... A client had dropped his rifle 470 double and ran after hitting the buf..PH stood his ground and took it head on and one of "my" sledgehammers put him down at a close distance...Rifle was a 416Rem

JOHAN......and all along I thought "caca" was Swedish for BLASER. Isn't it?

Sometimes I think the best is what we don't have. And how about the photos of the hunters with rounds between the fingers on the forearm? They figure they may need the 3rd and 4th shot. Where is Saeed when we need him for a definitive answer?

To answer the question, from a non-experienced hunter, the double by pure logic is faster, for the first two shots. after that I don't know about a reload, does that extra edge during the first two shots carry over to balance it out, giving a third shot at the same time the bolt gun is having theirs, and then beating the bolt gun again on the 4th? Some testing by members with both types of rifle might be in order.

My stepfather was telling me about a hunter he had read about that used a double in africa, he would fire one shot immediately after the other, getting both to hit target, one above the other due to firing during the recoil of the first.

Then you have Bell who would shoot elephants with what, a 7x57 or equivelent? But there were two reasons he could do this, one was that from what I have read he was a magnificent shot, the other was that he had nuts so large he had bearers for them instead of his rifles. :-) Personally I don't shoot near as good as him, and wouldn't be able to stand there with dry shorts and wait for the perfect shot. Although if I ever get to hunt africa I am sure it will be with a bolt gun, if I had the option I would carry the double.

And somebody mentioned something about hitting them in the right spot, I have read a couple of stories where the buff got hit in the right spot and it didn't go down. To me that is what makes them the ultimate animal to hunt, sometimes things just don't work with them and the hunt ends after over half a dozen shots with an extra two in the head with a 470 (Jack O'Conner's buffalo hunt).

Red

This question has an extremely simple answer. While everybody here has an intimate knowledge of what a bolt action can do very few here have ever fired a Double Rifle. When you do you will realize that a Double is really a two shot semi-automatic and can fire just as fast. At 25 mph it doesn't take long for a Buffalo to cover 50 feet. Does anybody here actually think you can fire two or more shots from a bolt in that time? By the way, that's 1.3 seconds.

Anybody here fire two aimed shots with a .375 H&H in 1.3 seconds at a moving target? Any proficient Double Rifle shooter will be able to do it.