I have been having a discussion with another forum member on this topic so just interested to see the forums view points.

So this is the scenario. A very well made rifle in all respects, real 10/10 stuff and calibre is 416 or bigger. However, you can only obtain the rifle with non detachable mounts and no iron sights. For various reasons you can't replace the mounts with detachables and add iron sights.

Would you buy the rifle as a DGR to take to Africa. Again, apart from being stuck with fixed mounts and no iron sights the rifle is expensive and scores 10/10 in all other areas.

Mike

No. No irons, no go.

I guess you could replace the scope with one of those red dot things but as there's usually plenty of DG rifles on the market why settle for something that isn't quite right........better to wait until you find something that's perfect for your needs.

Personally, I don't like the red dot gizmo's and would only consider an iron sighted rifle as a true DG rifle. sure it can be scoped if you want but if it is, it should have QD mounts......but hey, it's your money so buy what appeals to you.

Mike,

I would not as a 10/10 rifle for me must have irons an qd mounts so as to have "back yup sighting".

Mike,

I'm sure he can find another rifle that scores 10/10 in all areas, including iron sights and quick detachable scope mounts, instead of the one you mention.

Tell us more. Why can't the scopemounts be changed and why can't he add ironsights?

Erik

Just for now, I would prefer to try and keep the thread on the scenario mentioned. But briefly, the action has been recontoured so bases would have to be made and the existing mounts on the rifle are quite expensive and it is not the sort of rifle you would buy and then take elsewhere to get iron sights fitted.

But the rifle is a real 10 out of 10 in all other areas, some might even give it an 11 out of 10

Mike

If you like the rifle mate, get it! 10 of 10 is as good as it gets. It's its not 10 of 10, and not what you want don't get it.

I am done buying guns that need a complete facelift.

I bought a very plain but perfect LC Smith shotgun and spent $2000 making it into a nice gun. And it doesn't pattern worth crap.

Buy something you want and as long as it's not major it's great.

Anything requiring major work isn't worth it.

It cannot be a 10/10 DGR if it does not have iron sights, and if scoped the scope is not in QD mounts IMHO.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike375:
For various reasons you can't replace the mounts with detachables and add iron sights.

In theory you could disassemble the rifle into parts and start over, rebuilidng the rifle using some of those parts and some new ones. If the price were right, I would do it.

I would, no doubt. An Echols Legend in 416 rem would be a prime example. A pre-zeroed marked scope with a screw driver/feeler guage toolkit will have you back in business in no time. It's been done with resounding success.

Chuck

The so-called 10/10 DGRrifle you discribe sounds like a D'Arcy Echols rifle made for Allen Day! Permanent scope bases, and no Iron sights! IMO, Echols makes one of the most reliable rifle ever, but his refusal to install QD bases, and Iron sights is the reason I don't own one of his DGR rifles.

The answer to your question is "I would not Buy the rifle you discribe"

Unequivacably NO

I too missed the spelling class, so your point is?

I wouldn't buy it as my dedicated DG rifle, but as a 2nd rifle, why not. Most guys/gals never take the scope off their rifles anyway.

Seems that Saeed does just this. Non-QD/fixed mounts and no iron sights. But he takes a spare rifle and a replacement scope could be installed later, in camp if one of them went tits up.

I was castigated by MacD37 for having a .404 Jeffery with no iron sights, though I had two scopes for the rifle in QD rings for each scope.

I have taken this to heart. That rifle now has an NECG banded, hooded front sight with the pop-up H&H moon bead, and no open rear sight, just a detachable peep sight that goes on if the scope ever comes off.

I would always re-zero any scope if it were detached and re-installed. No QD outfit in the world is reliable enough to meet my standards.

I like the QD's only to allow quick removal of a scope gone bad , or the rare instance of going into a near zero visibility "Long Grass" situation. Then the scope will come off and I will shoot peep or express sights and scope does not go back on until I can celebrate having survived by re-zeroing the scope later at my leisure.

So, my answer to this hypothetical would have to be "NO."

Personal if we are talking about a client hunter I see no reason for iron sights. I may be all wet but all my rifles with the exception of one are slick barrels. I usually bring 2 rifles on any hunt and one spare scope that can do double duty as a replacement on my heavy or light rifle. Just because a rifle doesn't have QD mounts doesn't mean you can't change out the scope if necessary. I see no reason to put the cost of a new scope into a set of traditional express sights that will never get used. I realize this is heresy to the traditionalist but I like what I find practical. Slick barrels, nylon buttstock ammo carriers and plastic stocks are what works for me.

If the underlying question is would I or should anyone buy a Echols DG rifle I'd have to say yes as I am planning on a trip to Utah to visit with D'arcy about buying a rifle.

Regards,

Mark

I hardly ever (read never) use iron sights but a rifle without them is "nekkid".

Use your dough for a real rifle=one with iron sights.

No...What happens if the mounts break or a screw snaps...At least if you take off optics irons can then be used and shot instead of using it as a club... IMHO

Mike

I would if I HAD to, its not that big a deal one way or the other, as you have a PH to back you up if something goes wrong, beats not hunting at all, and most everyone kills buffalo with scoped rifles...

BUT, all my BG rifles have iron sights. Some of my BG rifles have iron sights only. some of my varmint rifles have a set of irons...I like shooting varmints with irons..

I think all rifles should have iron sights...I use a scope for secondary back up whereas most use irons as a secondary backup sight.

My only reason being that I like to shoot iron sights not because its absolutly necessary..I do think, contrary to some statments I have heard, that irons are faster in the short rows, in fact I know they are, and an iron sighted rifle has better pointability than any scoped rifle.....

This applies to me, eveyone has to arrive at their own conclusion and do what is comfortable to them...some folks never learned to shoot with irons in which case a scope is better for them....

Ray,

Iron sights aside, for overseas travel would prefer fixed scope mounts or detachable.

Mike

I would if I wanted one...

Iron sights are not necessary--desirable but absolutely not necessary--FOR NINETY NINE PERCENT OF ALL HUNTING, INCLUDING DANGEROUS GAME HUNTING.

A good low power scope, say 1.25-4 power is all one generally needs.

With all this talk about NEEDING irons AND a scope in QD mounts you would think it's a common occurrence for a hunter to HAVE TO remove the scope to kill a charging critter at SEVEN PACES (I think that's the usual distance).

Sure irons are very effective at short range in thick brush when after big or dangerous animals. But then again, I've pursued and killed big and dangerous animals at short range in thick brush with scope sighted rifles and they've been very effective, too, so go figure.

I say buy it if it's a ten.

[QUOTE]

I think all rifles should have iron sights...I use a scope for secondary back up whereas most use irons as a secondary backup sight.

My only reason being that I like to shoot iron sights not because its absolutly necessary..I do think, contrary to some statments I have heard, that irons are faster in the short rows, in fact I know they are, and an iron sighted rifle has better pointability than any scoped rifle.....

QUOTE]

I totally agree with you Ray and adhere to the same practices. I generally only carry iron sighted rifles because that's what I like to shoot. I find scopes getting in the way more often than not especiallyy when you need to come into action very quickly with little or no warning.

I love to jump shoot hogs on my place in Texas. Usually in very thick cover, I've been screwed by scopes on more than one occasion and when you put yourself in these snap shooting situations it becomes clealy evident which aiming system is faster to bring into action. There is no contest in this circumstance the express sighted rifle or a ghost ring sighted rifle is just quicker enough to make a definable difference and get the job done.

The other reason I tend to shoot irons is it makes a rifle so much nicer to carry. A rifle which is being carried is also much quicker to bring into action than one that is slung over the shoulder.

I not advising anyone to go out and rip the scopes off of their rifles that is a personal preference. I shoot betweeen 100-300 head of game (mostly hogs) a year with iron sighted rifles and that is what I've become comfortable and profiecient with.

So to answer the question about the rifle with fixed mounts NO WAY JOSE!@!

MR

On an overseas trip would you take a spare scope.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Mike375:
MR

On an overseas trip would you take a spare scope.

Mike

Yes. I always do take a mounted extra, but so far I have never needed to use it.

MR

Would you be happy going overseas with a gun with fixed mounts.

Mike

I have taken a slick-barrel .375 H&H hunting in Africa, and more than once. I would do so again.

jim

All my scoped rifles have fixed mounts. I don't have enough confidence in any of the QDs. True, I've never seen it happen, but I've heard from friends that the levers on theirs have been snagged or jarred loose in the field.

A screwdriver or hex key is all that is needed to transform a fixed mount into a QD anyway, and I always bring those along.

MR

So are you using the QD type mount but not the levers. In other words, is your spare scope in a set of rings and if you had to change scopes then removing the scope from rifle means you release the rings from the bases as opposed to removing the scope from the rings.

Mike

I will just say that I do not consider a rifle built for hunting dangerous game to be complete unless it has both iron sights and a scope mounted in detach rings. I don't care who built the rifle or how great the mounts are, if it does not have backup iron sights that are readily accessible it can potentially leave me in a position I wouldn't care to be in.
I'm not talking about having to rip off the scope so you can follow up that wounded lion or buffalo in close cover. I would never remove an undamaged scope to get at the irons. The scenario I am thinking about has happened to both myself and a friend while on safari. Had we not had detach mounts with iron sights ready for action our success on the respective hunts might have been different.
You've spent many thousands of dollars to get yourself to the place you are in, a hunting paradise called Africa. You're on the track of what could be the trophy of a lifetime. You're closing in and in a hurry, not watching where your feet are, too excited to see that rock or hole right in front of you until it's too late and you are either flat on your back or enjoying a mouthful of African dirt. Luckily you didn't make too much noise during the fall and the quarry hasn't spooked. You pick yourself up and grab your rifle....except the scope now is flat sided. What you gonna do...if you have a properly equipped rifle you easily remove the scope and carry on. If all you have is a spare scope and a Allen wrench your stalk is over. I don't want to have the potential opportunity of a lifetime go past in that fashion.

Any fall or impact serious enough to damage the scope also makes the iron sights suspect. Iron sights are not as infallable as much as some romantically suppose.

Buy the gun, if you are worried about a failure rent a spare from the PH when you get there.

Mike,

My DGRs are Blaser R93s and semi-custom rifles built on CZ 550 actions.

So, none of them use the traditional bases and rings. With the Blasers, all I have to do is take one saddle mounted scope off and replace it with another. With the CZs, I remove the rings from the integral bases. In both cases I use a simple hand tool.

Also in both cases, my substituted scopes have not, so far, lost zero.

Renting a spare is sometimes an option, but you'd better be sure there will be someone there to carry it. I'd rather bring my own spare if I were to follow that line of thinking. It really doesn't take a hard to fall to damage the objective lense of a scope if the impact is in the right (wrong) place.

If you look at the top of line David Miller rifles you will see they have his non-detachable scope mounts. I have never taken a scope off to use the irons on any of my rifles. I ALWAYS carry a spare scope and have on three different trips had to replace with the spare.
I try to have the spare scope in rings matching the rifle and have it prezeroed, but on one occasion I had to put in different rings. All this entailed was a re-zero after the change. My spare scope is always a Leupold 1.5x5 VXIII
for the eye-relief and wide field. I have cataract implants in these old eyes and don't shoot too well with irons in any case.

Since Chuck and Mac mentioned on of my rifles, I'll add my opinion to this thread.

In general, I agree with my friends John S., Mac, and others believe that an ideal bolt action big-bore to be used against DG needs to come equipped with a scope in detachable mounts as well as open sights.

There is simply too much that can go wrong at the most inappropriate moment to a rifle during the course of a DG hunt to trust entirely in a scope in fixed mounts, no matter how well-built and tough those mounts might be. If you drop your rifle, for example, and there is damaging impact impact to the scope's objective bell and you need to get that scope off and replaced to continue the hunt, you might find yourself in a pickle, especially during the course of, let's say, a buffalo hunt where you've got a bullet or two in that bull and you need to finish him ASAP. It's pretty ridiculous to imagine running back to camp to replace the scope and resight the rifle, with the intention of coming back tomorrow to finish your buffalo........

It's much easier and far more practical to turn the levers on your detachable mounts, hand the broken scope to a gunbearer to stow in the camera bag, then resume the hunt with the open sights.

My Echols-built .416 Rem. was not built for me to begin with, rather, I purchased it from a friend who had it built but had to quit hunting for health reasons. He had it made with D'Arcy's rugged, fixed scope mounts, a Leupold 1.5-5X on top, and no open sights. It's a rugged rifle, well-balanced, quick-handling, dead-accurate, dead-reliable, beautifully made, and it feeds like a dream. On the positive side, the lack of open sights makes for a wonderfully fast and clear sight picture. Nevertheless, I believe this rifle would be better if it had detachable mounts and open sights. I'm taking it to Tanzania this year for buffalo, etc., but I will indeed be taking a spare scope, and if something goes haywire withn the primary scope in the bush I'll have to resort to using my PH's spare double. Not an ideal situation.

I do have an Echols-built fiberglass-stocked 'Legend' in .375 H&H with Burgess detachable rings and EAW open sights, which was built some six years ago. Unfortunately, Echols will now only build a his 'Classic' with detachable Burgess mounts anymore -- not the 'Legend'.

And I'm not interested in wood-stocked hunting rifles anymore.........

AD

BigGuy, a sturdy banded front & single standing reat is very durable. I have tajen those bad falls before that made me suspect the zero of my scope. No problem just get the other rifle & hunt on. JohnS makes a valid point about a fall in the middle of a stalk. The only rifle I have that has usable irons is my .404, then again it's my only DG rifle (right now).

Scopes are fragile, they do break. In a big bore they also get shot off zero (see previous threads on this). If you can't rapidly replace the scope and there are no iron sights, it is not the best rifle for the job. We all buy lots of nice rifles that aren't optimal for DG but that is another subject. What's the point?

Mike,
Non detachable are very strong but I would NEVER use them...You would have to completely replace and resight if the scope went bad...Scopes are the weakest link....

Bottom line is fixed scopes on rifles are for suckers, rifles and scopes can do funny things in the back country..I want irons on any gun and I want QD mounts...no mercy here, end of story..

A lot of gunsmiths are fantastic engeneers, but 99% of them have not hunted much...to busy making nice rifles I guess...

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:
Unfortunately, Echols will now only build a his 'Classic' with detachable Burgess mounts anymore -- not the 'Legend'.

I understand that he makes very nice rifles. But why in the world do customers put up with having a rifle made, but not having their simple request for detachable mounts heard? Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't it a little silly for a gunmaker to not listen to what his clients want (within reason of course)? One of the points in getting a rifle made, instead of buying a factory product is to have it made to your specs IMO. I'd take my business elsewhere.

I know we all train extensively with our rifle/sight/load combo before we hunt. And I know all of us who hunt dangerous game train ourselves extensively to hit very close targets very quickly, building sufficient muscle memory that we really only need our crosshairs to verify what we already know is true -- that they are aligned for an instantly fatal shot. But who among us practices doing this with both scope and irons? What are your experiences dealing with the surprising difference in stock weld that results? Okie John

Okie,
I did in fact try out my iron sights in a rapid fire drill inspired by the previous thread on the Zimbabwe PH exam. It turns out that I can no longer use effectively the factory front sights on a Model 70 Safari Express or a CZ 550 Magnum, they are just too small for my aging eyes to pick up quickly in low light. I am experimenting with larger beads and also with a post sight set-up similar to the ones I am used to on my pistols which I seem to fire accurately enough in a timed drill. But you are right, until just a couple of months ago I had never tried a rapid fire drill with iron sights on my big game rifles.