Lion hunting poll

Question:
In your opinion is hunting lions behind a electrified fenced area an ACCEPTED form of sport hunting?

Choices:
Yes
No

 

Is that supposed to be ACCEPTED? As in we approve of it? If so...no.
troy

You really do need to change the wording of the question. The a/e (accepted/excepted-exempted) are two vastly different things.

What is the intent of your question?

OK/sporting to kill lions behind an electical fence?

HELL NO !!!

I even used spell check, I changed the spelling it will alter the results 6 people voted NO

Put an electrified fence around the perimeter of any of those Selous hunting blocks and meanwhile some of you discuss if it is ethical or not I will try to shoot some of those hairy kitties !!!

L

Another post.

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
Another post.

Amen to that.

And, just when did we as hunters decide to adopt the phrase "sport hunting"? That phrase is right out of the PETA playbook - killing for sport.

Hunting is something more than a sport. It is really part of who we are as people.

Football is a sport. Soccer is a sport. Baseball is a sport. "Sports" are associated with games, and games are "played".

Hunting is not a game, and it is certainly not play. It is the ancient struggle of life and death, and has nothing to do with winning or losing.

Hunting is much more than a sport. To reduce it to the level of a sport demeans its significance and denies that it is an activity that has kept the human race going for thousands of years.

Maybe I'm alone in my views about hunting. Maybe it is no longer viewed as a part of our lives, part of who we are. More a recognition of our instincts than anything we learned. Biologically, we are predators rather than prey.

If hunting becomes viewed by hunters as a sport, then the focus becomes the kill rather than the hunt. And at that point, one loses a part of who they really are. Then there is no respect for a life taken from this world when all the meaning it has is a statistic; another entry on a scorecard. Anyone can kill, but not everyone can hunt.

Jim you have a valid point but sport in the hunting sense is never meant in the same way as when talking about "games". Sport, or sporting in my eyes are only ever taken to to describe the way in which a hunter conducts himeslf in the feild. spoort hunting and culing can be carried out by the same person on the same land but the ultimate aim is different. There's no stigma to using the word in conjunction to hunting in my eyes.

In fact in my neck of the woods if you start talking about hunting people will think you are talking about following hounds either on foot or on horesback, so basically if the PETA guys or anyone else wants to twist our words and try to use them against us they will do anyway when meaning is context related and can be easily misconstrued by those that wish to do so....

quote:

If hunting becomes viewed by hunters as a sport, then the focus becomes the kill rather than the hunt. And at that point, one loses a part of who they really are. Then there is no respect for a life taken from this world when all the meaning it has is a statistic; another entry on a scorecard. Anyone can kill, but not everyone can hunt.

As for that, sport (now in the "game" sense) isn't only about the end outcome. In soccer (for example) some amazing feats of sportsmanship are shown on the feild without the scoring of a goal... Why then should the kill bbe the only focal point of feild sports? Feild craft, (what I assume you mean by being a hunter) is a skill learnt over time. Htose that choose to persue game in different ways to you should not be derided though.

I assume that this thread is inspired by the 6 Lions in a day thread. Basically I don't want to hunt Lion in this way. I could and I have been offfered it but I choose not to. I honestly can't say why I feel this way apart from to say that I don't feel it would be fair to the lion... I apply the same rationale to Buff but conversly would hunt leopard in fenced (non Electric) RSA game farms because I feel they have no respect for fences. No lights though... Why though the issue with hunting lions in these circumstances when it is generally accepted to hunt antelope in these conditions? is there any real difference apart from the grandness of the trophy?

Jim, my thoughts aren't directed at you here, just some stuff I think about out loud and don't necessarily have the answers to. However, wherever I hunt in the world, I like to be sure that my conscience is never compromised. If that is the case then I'm happy and generally have enjoyed myself.

Rgds,
FB

JMHO
FB

quote:

And, just when did we as hunters decide to adopt the phrase "sport hunting"? That phrase is right out of the PETA playbook - killing for sport.

Hunting is something more than a sport. It is really part of who we are as people.

I say Amen to that quote!!!

I voted no as I would not even consider doing it. To me, it would be like going out and shooting a cow off of the ranch. That said I oppose laws banning it as I oppose ALL anti-hunting laws.

I agree with what Jim said about using the word "sport hunting". We as hunters (and definitely on this web-site) need to be careful of what words we choose.

I can definitely say I have never "sport hunted" anything. Just as some AR member has in in his signature line, Hunting is not what I do, it is who I am.

Your question is way to vague and meaningless.

Just make the question clearer !

Is the property bordering Kruger park for example ?
Is this a goverment controled game reserve which hosts limited trophy hunting ?

All lions in RSA no matter wild or canned is sitting behind good fence.

So, your question should actually ask would you participate in a canned lion hunt or not ? Even then it gets deeper as what is considered canned ?

I say it is only ok if you are doing it with a very short pointed stick.

I voted no, with a caveat: if the area is huge 2500 acres or larger it would be bordering on whether it is fair chase or not

Phil

Of course not - assuming, as many have, that the area behind the fence is not something like the Save in Zim.

BTW, unless you do it to feed yourself and your family, i.e., for subsistence, like the Inuit, hunting these days is purely recreational, as in, a sport. That is not demeaning, just a fact.

And as with any sport, there are rules that we should play by. No one takes an automatic rifle or a rocket launcher into the forest after big game, and no one should shoot fish, or lion, in a barrel, either.

quote:

Originally posted by Lorenzo:
Put an electrified fence around the perimeter of any of those Selous hunting blocks and meanwhile some of you discuss if it is ethical or not I will try to shoot some of those hairy kitties !!!

L

I can't vote in these type questions...not enough information for me. The "fenced area" could be my backyard or the size of Tennessee or something...(?)
Cornered into a fence, or some pretty small enclosure may bother me like posed from some of those anti-hunting clips I've seen. What does it matter if it is "electrified" anyway?
I'm not a big fan of the term "sport hunting" either by the way. It gets twisted by groups into meaning something foul. I can see some shooting contests (i.e. trap/skeet shoots) called sport, but I never really considered hunting/trapping that way myself.
Take care.

Hunting lions behind a fence certainly is an ACCEPTED method of hunting if you are offering the hunt or buying it. For me it is not something I wish to do and the emptiness of my wallet will bear witness to the money I've spent chasing lions elsewhere. It's not my place though to judge whether it is appropriate for others to take a lion behind a fence.

Mark

Your poll is flawed, not enough definition of "fenced".

Also, it is a pot stirrer and serves no beneficial purpose. In fact, you know the outcome of this poll, as does every other regular member. There is no secret here. Canned Lion hunting is not welcome on AR. We have made that perfectly clear.

You know the result of this poll is going to be largely against the hunting of fenced Lions.

I believe this poll only serves to further poke at a certain individual who has recently come back from a Lion hunt in South Africa.

If your goal is to determine at what point it is acceptable, post another poll, something like this ...

What size fenced property would you consider hunting Lion on

100 acres
1000 acres
10,000 acres
20,000 acres
30,000 acres
40,000 acres
50,000 acres
100,000 acres

If your goal is to poke at another member, keep it in that particular thread.

And, no, I do not sell South African Lion hunts so I have no interest in promoting or defending them. Also, I am happy about the recent laws that will be enacted soon to abolish the truly "canned" Lion hunt. I believe these hunts were abouty as unethical as it gets in the hunting world.

I do recognize that size of property can influence the outcome of the hunt. A very large fenced property that allows a wild Lion the chance to escape can, at some point, be considered a fair chase hunt by the majority of reasonalbe hunters.

It is up to each hunter to determine for himself at what point that is.

........................

I assume the reason of having a electric high fence is to keep the lions from climbing out and over the fence.

I dont have a problem with exotic game like antelopes and sheep behind a game proof fence as long as the fence is the perimeter fence for the entire property and there are no other fences which keeps the game from moving to food, water, and cover. Also the property must be a large section of property and not a 1000 acre pasture.

The thought of seeing a lion behind a game proof fence takes the luster off the hunting of the animal.

Paul C

Sorry guys I was trying to keep it simple. By electrified fenced area. I was thinking any private ranch in South Africa say 1000-10.000 acres This poll was not started to poke fun at anybody, I have voiced my personal opinion many times long before Bwana posted his report.

Is a lion inside a fence any less capable of gnawing on your neck?
Chain a haunch of buffalo to a tree, sit in a ground blind 40 yds from it on either side of the fence and the evening can get pretty exciting!

I have heard it said that in some areas the lions have scaled the fence to escape. I'm sure that there are fair chase hunting "ranches", and other areas that are not very challenging. But, after all a lion is still a lion.

This is a topic of huge debate and it has many angles - but I think the question is asked how it should be asked and we should not slice the cake into a million different slices. Its a yes no question and it should cover all possibilities. The Lion is either capable of escapeing any attempt to hunt him or he is not.

Hunting is either on a ranch or not ( irrespective of size ) the reason this unethical way of hunting lion has not gone away is because we keep blurring the lines. South Africa has no free ranging Lions in hunting areas , and the record books should clearly seperate any Lion shot in South africa from the rest of africa and put an end to this debate.
Even in the Parks such as Umfolozi , Pilansberg, etc these Lions were reintroduced they are not natural populations.
We should stop giving the persons pepetuating this activity room to move , we are only giving the anti's ammo against hunting.
The worst part is looking at photos in hunt reports of huge Lions and you can clearly see the poor hunter has no idea his Lion is canned - after 25 years in the bush I can categoricaly assure you any wild adult male Lion is heavily scarred - the older he is generaly the bigger the mane and the worse his scars are - if your Lion is without seriuos scars - he grew up in a cage.
Happy hunting
Graeme Pollock

quote:

Originally posted by Bo Rich:
I have heard it said that in some areas the lions have scaled the fence to escape. I'm sure that there are fair chase hunting "ranches", and other areas that are not very challenging. But, after all a lion is still a lion.

The ranches that sell fenced lion hunts(pen raised) that I have seen have at least two electrified fenced enclosures. The main outer fence acts as a safety catch just in case one of the lions were to find a way through their fenced enclosure .
Inside the main fenced area each adult male is kept in his own enclosure. Because they must be keep away from any cubs and any other males. . You can also forget any romantic ideas of penned lions living off the land .
Simple economics dictate they are feed donkeys ($15) . Don't worry to much about people being deceived on theses hunts. Most people just want a cheep MGM lion.

In certain areas where a fence exists but does not impede natural movement of game species I approve of hunting. However behind a high fence I cannot condone the act of killing a caged animal.

The interesting thing about any thread on lion hunting and fences is how uncomfortable people are about just saying "Yes" or "No". We tend to say "No" with a wiggle here and a wiggle there.

Robert, once you consider your poll complete, break the responses into three categories; Yes, No, and Wishy-washy.

I'm going to say yes, I want as many hunters as possible to hunt the canned Lions, as I keep saying it takes the pressure off the wild Lions, and they are in dire need of help!

Even the most idiotic non hunter should see the upside of this..It is the only means of saving the wild Lions of Africa IMO...

Ray, I agree wholeheartedly. Whatever floats a person's boat is fine by me, as long as it is legal and has something good come from it. And in this case, the good is taking pressure off the wild lion population. I don't want to do a canned lion hunt myself, but I'm not going to ask that it be abolished. I am also not a big fan of hunting deer with shotguns and crossbows, but if you want to do it, go right on ahead. More power to ya!

I would never shoot a fenced Lion, nor would I book such a hunt, but I certainly have no problem with folks that pay big bucks and shoot big black maned pen raised Lions..

It keeps them from hunting the wild Lions that I love as I have said many times..Pigs, chickens, beef, sheep and goats are canned also as far as I am concerned..

Another thought is those pen raised Lions just might some day be the preservation/salvation of a species in days to come, the way Africa is moving these days the canned cats may be the only cats...

It amazes me how quick and unthoughtfull some folks come to a conclusion about something they have not studied to any great extent, they just form an opinnion and thats it, end of story..

Not so fast, lots of things to consider here like what constitutes canned? Is it OK to shoot plainsgame behind a fence as 95% of RSA is, and a criminal sin to shoot DG the same way.

Most on this forum have hunted plainsgame behind a high fence, many have hunted behind high fences in texas and Oklahoma and elsewhere in the USA and Canada...What about natural boundries such as big box canyons is that not sporting...

If one lives in a glass house, don't through stones fits this thread; and be careful what you wish for as it might come true; and last but not least the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

These are the things I will suggest to you, that I have learned after a lifetime in the hunting business, take it for what its worth, but don't banter it around like its not even a questionalbe subject, because it is.

I gladly turn the future of hunting and shooting over to all you younger dudes. I'm tired.

Ray,

Well said. As I have posted before, hunters do not need to worry about the anti-hunters, we will do ourselves in bickering and arguing among ourselves over bows versus rifles, fences versus no fences, baits versus no baits, etc.

Then there are those that argue, we must police ourselves! One reason I think the NRA has been so successful over many years is that they give no quarter. They defend the right to bear all arms. The NRA understands that in the world of legislation and bureaucrats, once you give any quarter the battle is lost. They will chop you up from there.

Think of it this way, what would the reaction of the PETA Board of Directors be if they read this string of posts . . . I submit that they would be smiling like a Cheshire cat.

I voted "Yes"

Hunting is OK by me, anytime anyplace, behind a fence or not.

However, as many here I'm totally opposed to shooting a lion, or any animal for that matter in a small enclosure, electrified or not. That can only be termed "shooting", and as advocated in another post, I reserve the term "hunting" for fully legal and fair-chase activities, that may, or may not, culminate in the killing of some animal.

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

"Accepted"? - Most definately yes, even under the proposed South African rules targeted to ban canned lion hunting. It's good thing, too. Otherwise (as has been previously noted above), the male lion population outside SA/Namibia would certainly be a lot lower than even at today's low level.

"Acceptable"? - Each hunter will have his own opinion. It's sad only when a hunter forces his opinion upon others with personal attacks, hassrassment, and even (all too common here) vulgar language and swear words.

Bob's poll is just a start. Perhaps the next two should be:

Poll No. 2

In your opinion is hunting male lions less than 4-6 years old an ACCEPTABLE form of sport hunting?

1. Yes

2. No


Poll No. 3

Which of the following three do you feel is worse?

1. Allowing "fair chase", "free roaming" lion hunting behind electric fencing (e.g. SAVE, Tam)?

2. Allowing male lions under 4-6 years old to be hunted ?

3. Continued rapid decline of the wild lion population?

4. A complete Africa-wide ban on lion hunting?

Comments anyone?

Sorry about the counting error above (a reflection of either my limited education, or my limited intelligence, or (most probably) both).

"three" should be "four" although most experts seem to feel that choice 2 is part of choice 3.