The economy around the world is bending us hunters backwards and it cost a lot of money just to pay for accommodation on a hunt (US2000 – US3000 for a 7 day hunt) and that’s without any trophy fees paid yet.

Not to start a fight, but just think for a few seconds, why do I have to spend a small fortune on accommodation while hunting in Africa, considering I have running water, sanitary facilities, clean sleeping and basic cooking facilities; will it still be necessary for luxury accommodation? No, I don’t think so.

Don’t get me wrong, many lodges offer excellent facilities, but do cater only for the rich...Most foreign hunters do hunt in their own environment with just the basic facilities, why not in Africa? All our local hunters do.

Surely the majority of foreign hunters are not all General Managers or Directors of companies (which usually can afford expensive lodges), but hunters with normal jobs, like me, working from 9-5 with a normal income and dreaming every day of hunting in Africa...

Does it make sense to be out the whole day on safari, coming back to a five star lodge at night only to enjoy eating dinner and thereafter go to bed and eventually gets billed for a ‘full day’ use...?

I know you can’t offer a three course meal in the bush, but I certainly can offer you an acceptable, attractive looking and tasteful prepared meal. A great piece of steak, garlic bread and a salad; for desert some ice cream, chocolate sauce and fruit salad – sounds like a great meal for me! And inexpensive!

Who says that a half kilo of sizzling steak prepared in a luxury kitchen in a five star lodge will taste better than being prepared on a open fire in the bush – that’s Africa...After all; saving money on accommodation can certainly bag you that extra Impala or Warthog or even that monster Blue Wildebeest for your trophy room!

Just take a few seconds and think about it, why do I have to spend a small fortune on accommodation while on a hunting safari? I am here to enjoy Africa and can enjoy it in the same manner as the rich GM’s and Directors of companies...but only CHEAPER...like the local hunters do...


Photo's of 'not so luxury' accommodation

That "not so nice accomadations" look just fine to me!! That looks more than adaquete for anything I would ask for in a hunt.
A firepit to drink around, and a nice bed to crash in..

Bushwack
News flash, your accomodation is the same as what the other guys are charging the big bucks for.
You doing the right thing by opening your hunting to those who may not be on the fat salaries.Well done, the country needs more of this.

Your not so luxurious accomodations are that indeed compared to what I stayed in.

Don't get me wrong, I throughly enjoyed the permanent tent camps and the bush tent camp I stayed at. Could not have been much more comfortable.

I don't think you are comparing apples with apples here.

Accomodation as you have shown above is permanent homes on farms in South AFRICA.

In countries where unconfined hunting is conducted, as in Tanzania for instance, permanent camps are ot allowed to be built. And one has to live in tented camps.

I have hunted from camps as you have shown above in South Africa, on several farms, and have enjoyed every minute of it.

But, hunting in an area that is not confined, and living in a tent, is infinitely more enjoyable.

Sadly, it is also more expensive.

Saeed
What you have said is true. It is however unfortunate that many of the opperators in SA have simply taken the costs associated with the freerange concession hunts with their concession fees and taxes and applied them to their opperations in SA.

There are a lot of opperations in it purely for the money and they somehow continue to get business. While I am a strong supporter of the South African ranch hunting industry I believe that it needs to be realistically priced. It should be the cheaper alternative to a trip to the concessions and should be bringing more hunters to Africa and promoting our sport. Not simply jumping on the wagon.
Wilderness hunting, especially where lion and other sensitive species are concerned, is justified in its pricing because it serves to protect areas in excess of 20 000 acres in most cases, in sa it is often the same pricing structure being applied to areas of 2000 acres. This I see as simply bad business sense and in a mild form of the word profiteering.

The SA hunting industry is going through a series of changes and for once seems to be heading in the right direction. I urge hunters to be very selective in who and what they support and in this way weed out those who are in it for the money and nothing else. They are the same scourge that are actively conducting the put and take opparations and were behind the success of the current canned lion system.

Like you many people have had quality safaris in South Africa, but the greed of few is destroying an industry that should be embraced by the international community as the best value for money African hunting. For this to happen though people need to name and shame and be willing to participate on fair chase principles and accept that they may go home with less than they were wanting.

There is no easy way around this but it is in the hands of the hunters as it has never been before. Make your voice heard through the dollars you spend. Informed buying is the greatest tool we have in ensuring that we carry hunting into the future.
Ian

I am sorry to have mislead you, but this accommodation is self catering and doesn't have any grading to it, this accommodation doesn't cost you US350 per night comparing to this: Remember the above photo's is how local hunter stay and most of these farms in South Africa has these type of accommodation

On my next hunt I'm shopping for something that will keep the bugs out and offers at least lukewarm showers at the end of the day. That's more than I get hunting here in the US.

Try a hunt with Pierre von Tonder in Tanzania, as many of you have....sleep in a tent, the shower is a 50gal barrel on stilts that someone fills with warm water twice a day, meals are generally what we shot. However, I find that set-up more exciting than staying at a "lodge" or ranch with all the accomodations, watching TV at night, catching up on emails. I hunt to get away from "normal" life...to me, it's part of the experience.

Vlam and Bushwack

How can one "weed out" the outfitters just in it for the money?

And does that neccessarily translate to a less expensive hunt?

Am I correct when I say another issue that increases the cost are the sort of "free lance" PHs who book a hunter then take him to an area he does not own, but where is allowed to take clients to hunt. This type of PH must pay the landowner his "rental" rate, then tack on more on top to make a profit for himself.

I have become friends with 3 different landowners, who have an open invitation to me to hunt when they do not have clients booked and charge $200 daily rate- and are willing to have me shoot non trophy animals (don't need any more trophy heads!) and generally experience the fun and atmosphere of Africa for about half the price of a "normal" hunt.

They do this because it makes sense to have someone there paying something, and they still make a nice profit (I assume) and they eliminate "middle men" PHs I described above.

Does this make sense to you guys?

Unless a visiting hunter knows of or finds these less expensive alternatives, I don't know if hunting directly with someone who owns the property is an less expensive- it seems that every one, everywhere in RSA charges $400 a day, and you can range from uber luxury to "habitable"

Is it unrealistic to expect people not to be in it for money? Yes, you can love what you do and be passionate about it but at the end of the day it has to pay your bills or you, your family, business and employees are not going to survive.

I am sure it is quite expensive repairing vehicles, marketing, currency fluctuation, canceled hunts……

To the original posting I would be happy to save money on more basic accommodation.

Maybe the real market price are the outfitters “specials” versus the normal daily and trophy fee.

Correct me if I am wrong I do not think anyone is becoming a millionaire by outfitting or being a PH.

The bottom line is that it is still cheaper or cost the same to hunt multiple animals (PG) in Africa versus many guided hunts in North America on a cost per animal basis.

Africa is still a bargain

quote:

Originally posted by 404WJJeffery:
Vlam and Bushwack


I have become friends with 3 different landowners, who have an open invitation to me to hunt when they do not have clients booked and charge $200 daily rate- and are willing to have me shoot non trophy animals (don't need any more trophy heads!) and generally experience the fun and atmosphere of Africa for about half the price of a "normal" hunt.

They do this because it makes sense to have someone there paying something, and they still make a nice profit (I assume) and they eliminate "middle men" PHs I described above.

Does this make sense to you guys?

Unless a visiting hunter knows of or finds these less expensive alternatives, I don't know if hunting directly with someone who owns the property is an less expensive- it seems that every one, everywhere in RSA charges $400 a day, and you can range from uber luxury to "habitable"

My first two hunts in Namibia were with a landowner/PH. The daily rate was about $125 a day. This was about 10 years ago, when PG daily rates were about $250-$350. My trophy fees were about 50% of the average of other outfits. The funny thing was that all my trophies were just as good as I would have found anywhere else(54" kudu, 35" gemsbok, etc.)

During my hunt the landowner/PH explained that he could charge less because cattle were his main business and there was very little overhead for the half dozen hunters he guided each year. He did no advertising, so he had little invested in his opperation.

The total that I paid for my hunt was about $3,500 usd. Most of that was pure profit to the landowner/PH. I would guess that his clients spent about $2,500 on average. With six clients I would guess that he cleared about $15,000 per year. Not bad for a side business.

BTW, at the time I hunted the 2.5 German marks was about $1 USD. There was a rumor that many outfits had one price list that they used for both German and American hunters. Americans were told that the prices were in USD and German clients were told that the prices were in German marks. So if the daily rate was "250" Americans paid $250 American dollars, while the Germans paid 250 German marks(about $100 American dollars).

Some of these small outfits will charge the lower rate to everyone. These deals are out there, but you would have to look for them as them as they are not advertised. If you find one you will get a lot of bang for your buck.

Hi,
I got back in Namibia thia year, not for hunting but to see more of the country. Travelled throuh the North of Namibia, mostly far from the most known touristic areas.
The group spent nights in the open bush (tented), in little and really good organized camps (tented again) and guest houses.

I really found more exciting and satisfying the nights in the open bush or in the very little organized camps (like Sikereti and Khaudum in Khaudum National Park)

Alll the other situation were for my feeling "canned", too much civilized, not really African.

If I can, I would like to spend my next hunt in Africa in a tented camp, possibly avoiding to spend too much in daily rates to spend more in bagging trophies.

Saeed is correct. This is comparing apples to oranges. Generally, the closer one is to "civilization" the easier and cheaper the logistics of operating a safari camp.

I consider myself very fortunate in having been able to afford to hunt in Africa quite a few times. At the very same time Saeed is hunting Ugalla/Kizigo with TGTS, I will be hunting Maswa and Mlele with Robin Hurt Safaris. Both of these operations are as good as it gets. The camps are truly remote and one is immediately struck with the logistical headaches they must endure to truck or fly in supplies over tracks that wouldn't pass for roads. It is incredible what they are able to do. The accomodations are magnificent, as is the food, etc. While hunting you won't see any fences and probably the only civilization you might see is an occasional honey hunter. Running these camps must be hellaciously expensive.

I have been in fixed camps and certainly enjoy them. They don't, however, compare with a luxury remote tented camp.

Don't feel sorry for Saeed and imagine that he is sleeping under some tarpolin and eating canned beans.

quote:

Originally posted by Vlam:
........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

I urge hunters to be very selective in who and what they support and in this way weed out those who are in it for the money and nothing else. They are the same scourge that are actively conducting the put and take opparations and were behind the success of the current canned lion system.
........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

There is no easy way around this but it is in the hands of the hunters as it has never been before. Make your voice heard through the dollars you do notspend. Informed buying is the greatest tool we have in ensuring that we carry hunting into the future.
Ian

There are some Hunting Outfitters that enjoy doing what they do but are basically in it, as Ian say "..... for the money...... "! I also agree that it is in the hands of the hunters to fix, or at least improve the situation as never before. You should not spend your money with the guys that unashamedly charge $ 200 and more for a baboon, or $ 600 and more for a caracal. It is invariably almost always these that make you pay high fees for animals that they mostly get for free that are also the "put & take" operators! At least that is what my experience and knowledge tells me.

Another way in which a foreign hunter can spot or identify the "put & take" crowd in order to withhold his money from those in it just for the money is through the pre-hunt contract. By absolutely insisting that the Remuneration Agreement (RA) contains a clear clause that says something like this: The Hunting Outfitter guarantees that not a single animal offered is in any way a "recently released from captivity specimen". If the hunter finds any evidence of animals released on the property no trophy fees whatsoever will be due.....". Everyone is reminded that the RA is a contract that has to be signed by both the hunter and the hunting outfitter before the hunt, and therefore both parties must agree to the content. Insist that before you ever make a deposit payment such a clause be included in the RA, and you'll quickly see which HO's actually do offer put and take hunting! I can speak only for myself: I'm quite prepared to put such a clause into all of my RA's, and even a clause that states that I will afford the hunter every possible form of assistance should he wish to ascertain the fact that the animals offered for hunting are indeed not there by recent release. I urge other South African HO's to make a similar statement here on a public forum. Why are some of you so quiet?

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

quote:

Originally posted by 404WJJeffery:
Vlam and Bushwack

How can one "weed out" the outfitters just in it for the money?

And does that neccessarily translate to a less expensive hunt?

Am I correct when I say another issue that increases the cost are the sort of "free lance" PHs who book a hunter then take him to an area he does not own, but where is allowed to take clients to hunt. This type of PH must pay the landowner his "rental" rate, then tack on more on top to make a profit for himself.

I have become friends with 3 different landowners, who have an open invitation to me to hunt when they do not have clients booked and charge $200 daily rate- and are willing to have me shoot non trophy animals (don't need any more trophy heads!) and generally experience the fun and atmosphere of Africa for about half the price of a "normal" hunt.

They do this because it makes sense to have someone there paying something, and they still make a nice profit (I assume) and they eliminate "middle men" PHs I described above.

Does this make sense to you guys?

Unless a visiting hunter knows of or finds these less expensive alternatives, I don't know if hunting directly with someone who owns the property is an less expensive- it seems that every one, everywhere in RSA charges $400 a day, and you can range from uber luxury to "habitable"

404WJJeffery,

I have already given some ‘mis’-guidance of ways to help the foreign hunters that must decide on and choose a Hunting Outfitter identify those that are more likely than not just going after your $’s in my reply to Vlam’s posting.

To a very large degree I fit your description of a “free lance” in not owning my own hunting area. So does more than, my guess, 50 % of all Hunting Outfitters not own their own land. You will find that many of the “Big Name” HO’s does indeed own at least some of the land on which they hunt. It is often on this that they practice most of the “put & take” hunting. But many also hunt on farms in other provinces that doe not belong to them. I simply see no difference between me, as a non-landowner, taking a client to hunt a bushbuck on Josef Swanepoel’s farm and XYZ Hunting Outfitters taking their client from their own farm to go and hunt a bushbuck at Josef’s place? [Incidentally: Why would they do it? Because bushbuck are just about impossible to “catch, transport and release”, so very few bushbuck are hunted as put & take trophies. Most other species will be hunted on their own farm, as these are good candidates for capture, transport and release.]

Knowing South African game farm owners and being invited to hunt there at very low costs is just fine! Provided you do it all legally: The person guiding you has to hold a valid license to operate as a PH and the farmer has to either be a Hunting Outfitter, or offer the hunt through a HO. If that is not the case, then you are hunting illegally in a foreign country!

Have the paperwork all nice and legal, and I do not have any complaint. We in South Africa need a lot of foreign goodwill and that what your farmer friends are doing helps to this end.

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

404
Andrew has it right. You will quickly pick out the dodgy operators, mostly by their pricing structure. You see it costs a lot more to buy a big kudu and transport it than it does to have it breed naturally. I am all for bringing in new genetic material and having it spread its genes, but with the put and take system it is simply not the case.

Getting back to the original post, I can just say, be an informed buyer. Shop around, you will soon see who is taking the piss. There are a few, and by that I mean very few who really do turn on the luxury and can justify the 400-600US per day rates. However you should not be paying that to simply stay in what amounts to a thatch bunkhouse.

You mentioned that no hunting outfitters are getting rich off of hunting, I beg to differ. There are a lot of them, all of which are simply business men in the business of selling people over priced hunts and game because of a legend that says African hunting is expensive.
It is unfortunate that now the over commercialized nature of the hunting shows gives the big dollar opperator the advantage. They come in there with a stand second to none, stay in the best hotels and take thousands of dollars off you, then they place you in a crowded bunkhouse and drive you round to knock off a few pen raised kudu. There is no way that a 3000ha reserve can produce 20 RW kudu every year for 5 years running. Shop smart, look at the records, ask for details and you will be an informed hunter.

Is it not a bit sad that when I offer an honest to god 10 days of hunting including a Kudu, Gemsbok, Blesbok, Impala, Warthog and vermin; based in a tented camp on 6000ha for US 3200 it was at the time. That people think I must be a scam artist because it is too cheap.

With the prices at which good game is sold to local hunters, there is enough of a margin in the average expected rate to foreign hunters for any PH to make his money. Adding massive day rates to that is just lining peoples pockets, unless they actually deliver the goods.

There are a few of us, some like Andrew who have been in the hunting industry for many years, and some like me who are just building up, that are more interested in selling the experience and promoting hunting than lining our pockets. A good living can be had without abusing the market. The answer to hunters wanting more money is not to simply charge more, they must either bring more hunters in to Africa or they must step up and deliver something special. The areas in between are simply seeing how much you can get out of people before they look elsewhere.

To end this off, you can never throw a blanket across all operators and what they offer, but if you are more interested in the hunt than in being pampered, and would like to get the most miles of Africa under your boots then don't waste your money chasing inches and luxury. Get your feet on the ground, lay your head on a pillow with nothing but a tent flap and the stars above you and you will have the Africa you dreamed of. Life is too short to wonder what you missed out on, go now and live the pioneers Africa because believe it or not it was waiting for you, right there, not even 100 m from the 5 star Hilton that blocked out what you actually came for.

Ian

Jason, thanks for your reply, good information.

Hi Andrew, thank you for your reply as well. i see your point re the bushbuck, but the issue of owner/non owner of land I think was raised in reference to daily rates- that the owner can and maybe would charge a lower daily rate.

You did address the more important issue of selecting a goof outfitter. Thank you for the information.

I've never once slept anywhere except a tent while hunting in Africa -- and not one of these hunts was anthing close to a low budget affair.

I knew that some folks restrict their hunting to populated areas or to private ranches and, accordingly, slept in permanent dwellings -- some fairly luxurious, but I've always thought that they were in the minority except for the eco-tourists. Hunting to me has always included going as far into the bush as possible and sleeping among the beasts. To me, half the enjoyment of a hunt is hearing the odd Lion roam through the camp; or a Leopard trying to break into the skinning shed; or an Elephant knocking down a tree near my tent; etc.

Live and learn.

Hi Vlam

I think I was composing my last reply as you were as well, so I just saw your most recent post. BTW I don't think I said that no one is getting rich off hunting- I know many are, and that many are enjoying a nice lifestyle from it- maybe not rich but a nice lifestyle - which is fine.

I think you raise an interesting point, and when I read in Magnum's annual hunt offering edition about the prices locals pay, I notice- but the counter point always raised is...yes but as a foreigner you need a PH etc. hence the additional cost.

Again, you raised excellent points to consider!

That's the Hilton compared to what I want in accomodations on Safari. Real tent camping is what I looked for in a hunt, and a good cook. I cannot recommend Royal at CM Safaris highly enough. I think he could grill tennis shoe soles and make it a great meal.
CM Safaris is Buzz Charlton and Myles McCollum, and they work very hard to recreate the type of safari camp you might have seen in the heyday between the wars.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by 404WJJeffery: Am I correct when I say another issue that increases the cost are the sort of "free lance" PHs who book a hunter then take him to an area he does not own, but where is allowed to take clients to hunt. This type of PH must pay the landowner his "rental" rate, then tack on more on top to make a profit for himself.

Here's an approach taken by a PH/friend in SA. I thought this was a good idea as it addresses the two-tier (local vs American) pricing structure in South Africa that many find frustrating:

quote:

Bill I am running a special this season because of the severe economic status. Daily rate of $350-00 which includes everything you would expect on a safari. Heres the good deal, instead of paying me the trophy fees you pay the land owner cost price in sa rands or the equal vent in us dollars. For example I pay 10 000-00 rand for a nyala (1000-00) and after my mark up you end up paying $2200. There is a huge savings which could mean the price of your air fare. I just feel that i can earn a honoust living on the daily rate without ripping the client on the trophy fees, especially when we are all battling. This price will not influence the trophy quality. Talk soon.

This is also attractive, at least to me, as it lessens the pressure to shoot everything in sight. The landowners will of course want to see one pull the trigger, but the PH should not be looking to sell-sell-sell.

Bushwack, your approach is interesting too, but the trophy fees need to be taken into consideration. Take for example the nyala, I just saw one hunting company listing them for $3500. Kudu and other popular species are getting out of sight in SA, and I wonder how much of it due to increases in the cost structure and how much is greed (landowner or otherwise).

I don't know about you, but I find the loss-leader approach (not saying this is what you are doing!) taken by many of the SA outfitters who "donate" hunts to the US shows incredibly deceptive. Give away the hunt with a few species, then hammer the guy on the ground with insane trophy fees. Sure it is a business and this is their strategy, but I would bet that many of these guys (mostly newbies) are not made aware that the TF’s will be higher then normal and and/or succumb to the pressure when on the ground to shoot-shoot-shoot. Sure there are exceptions, but I see this time and time again.

I did one hunt in SA and frankly I was very disenchanted with how much of a business it is, and how much of it was in my face on a daily basis. I felt like a piece of meat being driven around to pull the trigger. The guy who owned the hunting company (who also owned some land) would radio the PH several times during the day and yell in Afrikaans (!!!) - especially by mid-day when he was getting good and loaded - at the PH if he hadn't shot anything yet. Of course my PH was rattled, and eventually told me what he was saying. This was my first trip, at this point I’d probably end up in a SA jail.

Something like this takes a lot of the "magic" out of a safari. The next 11 trips were NOT to South Africa, and the only concession that had anything even resembling a fence was the Save Conservancy and we all know how huge this is.

So my feeling is that I would hunt SA again (on foot for select species that offer a challenging hunt in their native habitat), but only with somebody who I trust and know some background on, and who is looking out after me and not the landowner while sheltering me from all the BS that right or wrong I consider part of the Afrikaans genetic makeup (feel free to convince me otherwise on this point, please).

Regards, Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Vlam:

You mentioned that no hunting outfitters are getting rich off of hunting, I beg to differ. There are a lot of them, all of which are simply business men in the business of selling people over priced hunts and game because of a legend that says African hunting is expensive.

Ian

Part of the problem is that we American hunters tend to believe that "you get what you pay for".

At SCI this year I picked up a glossy brochure from one of the most expensive outfits. I almost blacked-out when I saw the trophy fee for a jackal in Namibia.... $600 dollars!

How do you justify $600 for a jackal?

I have shot 15 jackal in Namibia and I have never paid a dime.

quote:

Vlam and Bushwack

How can one "weed out" the outfitters just in it for the money?

what would our industry look like if we took out everyone in it for business and just kept those in it for fun?

that said , i agree wholeheartedly that to allow the business end encroach on the safari experience is a great shame and in fact a crime to ruin a guys dream of what africa should be like ...

when i was in my late teens and early 20s i hunted for fun , now i am in it for the money.in those days i had no family and very few responsibilities.

being in it for the money does not mean that i dont love it and work just as hard as i did in my 20s but its how i earn my living ... and without paycheck life would be very different.

again i qualify that by saying that there are never any hidden costs ...or agendas.... and both parties know going into the deal what is involved ....

in many parts of africa , including south africa you are not just paying for accomodations , your daily rates cover the salaries ,the ph fees ..the leases for the areas ,the concessions fees , insurance and basic administration costs ..

if your daily rate is say 200 per day all inclusive thats great but how much is your ph earning and what kind of ph can you expect for that money ...

while we are at it lets weed out anyone in any business thats not in it for the money and just support those who manufacture , build and create businesses ...just for fun !!!

Ivan

What you have said is true. But you are exactly the example that others should be following. You provide a quality experience at a fair price and you back your product all the way.
Experiences like what BillC had are the result of the money first mentality.
You mentioned things like the quality of the PH, the guys in it for the money dont give a damn about the PH. Thats also part of the reason that they shoot from vehicles. If they were willing to pay for a decent PH they would have to pay a bit more than the US50 dollars a day that is the norm.

One other thing here, what I have said generally applies to South African hunting. In the other countries the costs to get an outfit on the ground are much higher. This is also the basis of my "informed buyer" comments, dont just accept the high rates because someone is in a flashy stand in Reno.
Everyone should be making a living, and as good a living as they can, but not at the cost of loosing the industry to unscrupulous operators.

The hidden costs, pressure to shoot, compromised ethics and general disregard for any conservation practices are driven by greed and nothing else. This is what you as a hunter can help to get rid of by being an informed buyer.

quote:

the hidden costs, pressure to shoot, compromised ethics and general disregard for any conservation practices are driven by greed and nothing else. This is what you as a hunter can help to get rid of by being an informed buyer.

i agree totally ian ....just like the recent posts about hunts being offered in Hwange etc etc ...in this industry its very very hard to find reputable outfitters and i feel sorry for a guy walking into reno without a plan ...everyone looks like they have the best camp and service and without research that would be a nightmare !

I have always found luxury to be more about service than furniture or buildings.

In Namibia you have to pay more for something like this.







Worth every penny!

quote:

Originally posted by 404WJJeffery:


" and when I read in Magnum's annual hunt offering edition about the prices locals pay, I notice- but the counter point always raised is...yes but as a foreigner you need a PH etc. hence the additional cost.

Most of these farms already have a residence PH...Local or foreign, you going to pay for the services of the PH, but at a different price...

quote:

Originally posted by ivan carter

in many parts of africa , including south africa you are not just paying for accomodations , your daily rates cover the salaries ,the ph fees ..the leases for the areas ,the concessions fees , insurance and basic administration costs ..

100% Ivan

to add vehicle repayments, rent or bond,telephone ,internet .............is paid every month and not only during hunting season

if you want the best staff you cannot only have them for 6 months of the year they will move to where they have permanent employment. YOU ARE ONLY AS GOOD AS THE PEOPLE AROUND YOU. it is al factors that contribute to safari costs and the quality of the safari is also affected by it.

prices is also affected by consumer demand and specialties required

To the original poster Bushwacked.

Who do you think set the standards every hunting camp have to adhere to when accommodating foreign guests? And so by the way, it is regulated, and if you as an outfitter do not have your camps you hunt out of checked yearly as specified by DEAT, you will encounter problems some or other time.

Given, the basic requirements and standards is not high, but there is a standard Sir.

Also, to be honest, this is an industry with a way things have been "evolving" constantly through the last 30 years in this country, good and bad of course. I remember our first German hunters sleeping in an asbestos hut in the middle '80's when my Dad hunted pro. That camp was changed in its whole when the industry started to be regulated more.

The debate is a big one, and I am not even going to go into the economics or justification thereof to run a full time pro hunting business in South Africa.

Also, it must be said, as rightly pointed out by other members here, your camp is very much on par with most of the camps we hunt out of. The bottom-line is that landowners know there is a value to "bed-nights", but also a standard, and for uncatered, rated accommodation that will always be between R350.00 to R500.00 per night. At $350.00 per person per day the "bed-night" is a drop in the bucket, the real cost come into making a LIVING, as 375fanatic rightly pointed out, vehicles, staff, insurance,etc.....that is what cuts into the daily rate BIG time. If you undercut yourself in price, you will pick up problems in the long run, because you simply cannot run a full time business, and make some money out of $200.00 per day.

When we book clients on the internet it did not cost us a cent in advertising, and we try to pass that little advantage on the hunter.......

And so by the way, most Outfitters I know have their clients eat, "honest food" (grandma's term) and meat that the client or previous client shot.

So good luck, you did not pick a fight, just stating something a lot of us have been doing for some time now.

And so BTW, those top places do not always charge that much more just for sleeping, it is the full catering that they smoke you on.....

Take note on what Saeed and other posters here said on hunting camps in other parts of Africa, costing a lot more....is it because of the camp? I do not think so, I think it is because of the setting and experience...

Personally, I want to go with someone who is running a business. I don't want to go with someone that is just out having a good time.

As 404 quite rightly says, prices of local and international hunts are totally different because the product is also totally different. So it is indeed a case of apples and oranges.

As far as running a safari business as a proper business is concerned, there's no other way to do it if you want to stay in business in the long term.

Vehicles not only have to be paid for, but they have to be maintained and also have to earn enough to pay for it's replacement when it's time is up. Staff have to be paid, poachers have to be policed and so on......... every day of the year.

I know someone or other is gonna bark at me for saying this, but I actually reckon that most African hunting safaris are actually very good value for money indeed when you look at what you get for your money.

The two times we hunted in South Africa, we hunted with an "independent" outfitter. Peter Harris.

We hunted several properties, and had an absolutely fantastic time.

So saying that one should only hunt with the owners of a property is not strictly correct.

quote:

he two times we hunted in South Africa, we hunted with an "independent" outfitter. Peter Harris.

We hunted several properties, and had an absolutely fantastic time.

So saying that one should only hunt with the owners of a property is not strictly correct.

i agree completely often a landowner doesnt have the slightest idea of clients wants and needs and a ph or subcontractor can often do better ...

Some very interesting comments and observations here.
As you can see I am a new member to AR, however "an old hand" in the hunting industry,
and really enjoy the topics and discussions that come up on this site.
There are pros and cons to both sides of the story.
Remember this is a seasonal business, and most outfitters and PH's have to make a living out of a six month window to be able to survive for the rest of the year - and then still be able to spend a small fortune on marketing their business - especially if they have to travel to the various international shows !
I am a Professional Hunter in the true sense of the word - in that I do not have another job to supplement my income.
If I knew I was going to be booked up for 365 days of the year - I would quite gladly cut my daily rates and other costs to clients - as I knew I would be making a regular living throughout the year !
Also clients set the standards of what they want and expect - I am all for the wild wilderness experience and pretty basic facilities - but lets be realistic here - how many of our clients are really willing to rough it continuously for a 14 day - never mind a 21 day safari !
I have spent many days in remote and spike camps and have seen clients enthusiasm for the "wilderness experience" wane quite dramatically when the hunting and conditions get tough !
Believe me, I would love to be able to take clients on safari, and not be paid to do it - simply because I love to hunt and be out in the wide open spaces - and cannot think of a more enjoyable lifestyle - however in todays modern society I wouldn't last very long - so until the fairy godmother comes along and waves her majic wand to grant me all my wishes, I guess I will have to just continue charging a reasonable daily rate to make a living - so that I can continue to meet like minded people and pursue this sport that I am so passionate about.