The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting PH casualtiesGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| PH casualties | Login/Join |
| One of Us |
Remember that Ganyana has seen more elephants and buffalo taken in his life time than the two of us combined will ever see. We have to be careful in assuming that any bullet that works well for us once or twice won't fail the next. Under the right conditions any bullet can fail. To believe otherwise is to be unprepared!  465H&H | |||
|
| One of Us |
465 - Very true! But, I'm not just talking about bullets in Africa. I can't think of a time that I've ever seen bullet failure, and that's guiding hundreds of hunters over the past 20 yrs too. That's why I asked the question about the type/quality of bullets and ammo some are getting in Africa? I ask, cause I really don't know? I'm not sure how you prepare for bullet failure? | |||
|
| Administrator |
I have seen some horrible bullet failures with normal soft points and the old Winchester Silver Tip. I have also seen some unexplained things happen with other bullets. The softs disintegrate and completely, only the jacket is found. I have personally used Sierra Match Kings on safari, and here is teh catch - they all fell to pieces, but they killed the animals!!?? I have seen some of our own Walterhog bullets break appart. And from the pieces we have collected it seems there is some fault in the copper material we were using. In one particular occasion, I shot a buffalo smack on the point of the shoulder. The whole joint was turned into mush, bones and all. He could not run, and I shot him again in the head. WE could not find ANY pieces of the bullet, except that it did not penetrate into the chest cavity at all. | |||
|
one of us |
I think it would be unwise to assume that the latest gen bullets won't or can't fail. Antlers Double Rifle Shooters Society Heym 450/400 3" | |||
|
One of Us |
Just a month ago in Zambia my PH had a few missfires one after another. He used old 458 Hornady ammo. BTW the case was wounded ele on 15 yards. | |||
|
One of Us |
Now that is opening a can of worms from YEARS back!  I too actually shot two zebra, a mess of impala, two wildebeest, and a blesbok with Match-Kings once. They were all shot in the right spot and all expired quickly. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Antlers - Obviously bullets can/do fail, but I think one has to at least assume the bullets they are using - won't fail! What else would one assume? My bullets are probably gonna fail, but I'm gonna use em anyway? Who would do that? Certainly there's no way to plan for, or prepare for bullet failure - is there?? So if a bullet fails, what's one to do about it - before it happens? Nothing! All you can do is shoot the best quality bullets available, ones you like the best - and go hunting. | |||
|
| One of Us |
 | |||
|
| One of Us |
I suspect that the two most common type of soft point bullet failure are expecting a bullet to do something it wasn't designed for. Either using it a velocity that is over or under the velocity range that it was designed to operate at or using a bullet designed for small or medium sized game on large heavy boned game. With modern solids, not all are perfect in fact maybe none. There are some bones in elephant, hippo and buff they can bend or flatten even the best bullets. Maybe that can be blamed on shot placement though. Not all will agree with me on this but for some uses a solid can be too good. If I am forced to give up a shot because of a potential wounding or hitting an animal behind it, maybe that is bullet failure or maybe that is my fault for choosing the wrong bullet for my needs. Here are a few pictures of modern solids that have failed:      465H&H | |||
|
One of Us |
Here, Here!! Exactly.  | |||
|
| One of Us |
Agree with you Aaron. With one exception. If using the DGS or DGX on anything that can stomp the crap out of you, I think expecting the bullet to fail, and therefore having a predetermined place to run and hide prior to pulling the trigger, is sound preparation!!  | |||
|
| One of Us |
 | |||
|
| One of Us |
I a taking some different bullets to Tanzania and I was going to try a few on a dead buffalo shooting length wise with a 500 not to prove anything just to see if it will help me decide pon one that I have confidence in.i like Aaron have not had a bullet failure in Africa while I have had shooter failure on my part. I am not happy when I fail as the hunter but I have learned not to get down as it will happen to anyone sooner or later maybe the same with bullets. | |||
|
| One of Us |
The way I prepare for bullet failure is to be ready to instantly put in another bullet if the animal doesn't go down. I also tell the PH to feel free to shoot if he thinks it may escape before I do put that next shot in. 465H&H | |||
|
| One of Us |
That's just common sense!!! | |||
|
| One of Us |
Based on what PHs have told me then, common sense is lacking in a lot of clients. Some just stand there and watch the buff or elephant run off like it was a lung shot whitetail and others threaten to not tip them if they shoot under any circumstance. 465H&H | |||
|
| One of Us |
Thats one reason I like my 6 shot CZ and have a culling belt on. And practicing reloads from the belt..... White Mountains Arizona | |||
|
| One of Us |
Yes, yes, yes. Follow up shots by the client and PH if necessary! For sure. BUT, if those follow up shots (Client and PH) are both being taken with DGX, better have a place big enough for both of you to hide in after pulling the trigger and running away!!  Kind of like when the Sheriff in Blazing Saddles was loading his gun to go out and face Mongo and the Waco kid said, "I wouldn't shoot him, that'll just make him mad". The Sheriff must have been shooting DGXs!!  | |||
|
| One of Us |
Probably so, but not you. You even plan for, and prepare for - bullet failure! How much more common sense can you have than that??  | |||
|
| One of Us |
On my last elephant hunt, a bull mock charged us from 10 yards and stopped at six yards. When he dropped his head for another mock charge or possibly a real one I fired for a frontal. Just as I pulled the trigger, he quickly raised his head again. This caused by bullet to hit about 10" low. I was able to drop him with a spine shot as he was disappearing in the Jesse. When I turned to look at the PH he was standing there with his rifle barrel forward on his shoulder. I said to him, actually it was a yell "Why the hell didn't you shoot?" His response was "I knew you would kill him with your left barrel and I have seen you shot quite a few elephants. I wasn't worried. You shoot better than Boddington and almost as good as Aaron Nielson!"  465H&H | |||
|
| One of Us |
 Best regards, D'Fan | |||
|
One of Us |
Hell, you are going to go a long way to beat that. Although I have seen that Aaron Neilson has admitted to not being as good with his double as his scoped rifles.  | |||
|
| One of Us |
Ammuntion supply in Africa is slowly improving - but there are still alot of piss poor bullets out there. The appies on the proficiency exam generally have poor ammo but not always, and many have gone to the effort to get what they belive is good quailty ammo before the exam. Also, in most of the continent there are only three makes of ammo available except that bought by Clients- Viz, PMP (most common) Federal and to a limited extent, Norma. I have never seen Winchester or Hornday or Remington outside of South Africa. The occasional batch of S&B or RWS but not a whole lot of choice. Handloading is illegal in most countries and not many PH's are into it - powder and primer supply are extremely limited in Zimbawe, Botswana and I am sure our Zambian friends will say the same about up there- Tanzania is worse, and as for CAR and Cameroon...don't dream of it. In the last few years I have seen failures from two makes of brass solids. The photo's of mine that 465 posted are from a few years back and I haven't seen any of the new generation Barnes bend. I have seen woodleig solids rivit slightly or, in .375 only bend slightly. They have always got through to do the job though. Have seen other current production 'steel jacketed' FMJ's expand like a good soft point and fail to penetrate. Have never seen a bullet with a brass jacket and lead core that was reliable enough for me to put any faith in. Hornady dropped theirs after a few too many failures, but similar bullets are still available as premium from Federal! And that is just talking solids as used on elephant. There is a much wider veriety of soft points available and such a range of game taken with them that the occasional failure is to be expected- Like the .416 TSX that totally failed to open at all on a lioness on the 2007 PH exams. Have seen one other Barnes TSX fail to open (.375 on a Zebra). But- they work better than most and I recomend them as a great option for use here. We also see more Barnes % wise than many brands of SP as they are available in Federal and Norma factory ammo (so that local folk can buy them). NB..If in doubt, ask your PH if he needs a box of decent ammo before your hunt. We all do  And I would guess that less than 50% of clients arrive with what I would consider as Premium ammo - European hunters are particularly bad, but Americans are not exempt. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I was on the verge  yesterday when I learned that the client decided to have some target shooting for the boys back at camp by "burning off" leftover .500NE ammo - I was lucky enough to get the last 3 remaining | |||
|
| One of Us |
465 - I gotta admit, that's funny!!! Your PH obviously had more confidence in your bullets than you! After all, you are always prepared for bullet failure. I wonder if its bullet failure, or shooter failure that you're really concerned with? And I have hunted with Craig - he actully shoots better than I! | |||
|
| One of Us |
Aaron, I have been at this game long enough to know that you can not take it for granted that something isn't going to go wrong after you pull the trigger and the animal isn't killed. It can be a movement of the animal before the bullet gets there, a twig you didn't see in the way, a misjudgment of the animals angle, bullet failure, bone deflection etc. etc. better to be prepared for anything when your or your companions lives are on the line. 465H&H | |||
|
| One of Us |
I have just returned from Hammond in the Save where Criton was stamped on by the ele bull. We took the time to put a chain saw to the clean skull of the bull and when we had cut it in half we could clearly see the path of the bullet- a 570 grain bullet ( Woodliegh) traveling at 2300 ft/sec shot from a Jefferies Blazer at 20 yards. It did knock the bull down however it got up and the rest is history BUT the interesting thing is the bullet went just under the brain and came to rest 2 inches directly in front of the first joint of the spine where the spine joins the skull- so 2 inches more penetration and that ele was dead! | |||
|
| One of Us |
It also shows that there is such a thing as stopping power. It knocked the ele down on the shot and stopped the charge with out hitting the CNS. Except for a jam caused by a FN bullet in a bolt rifle it would probably also have been stopped with a follow up shot. Based on what I have seen shooting both FN and RN solids into elephant heads both penetrate about the same and using a FN may not have solved the problem either. On the same shot, a 550 grain Woodleigh RN solid at 2,150 fps would have exited the spine and neck. 465H&H | |||
|
| One of Us |
Agreed! But again, to me that's just common sense. Follow up shots on any animal that is still moving, should be second nature. | |||
|
| One of Us |
What is not mentioned here is the number( and it is a BIG number) of clients that tell their agent and their PH "That something damn well better be chewing or stomping me before you shoot your rifle" Most experienced PH's sort this nonsense out fast, but I have seen less experienced pro's buckle to the clients pressure and not shoot when they should have. Tell me this in my booth and I will tell you to move along. Dave Fulson | |||
|
| One of Us |
Buzz - I would strongly encourage you to try the CEB's for yourself. I've not seen anything that penetrates like them, not even close! My experience with them is still limited, but impressive to say the least - so far. Two elephants, 6 shots, and all but one made a complete pass through. Including a bull shot through the shoulder bone, and it exited the opposite side. The non-con's have been just as impressive on other game as well. If you look at all the testing Michael McCourry and Same Rose did with the CEB's, as they helped in the design - you'll see that no other bullet even came close in the penetration tests. Just ask Ian what he thought about em? They are certainly worth a try. | |||
|
One of Us |
Buzz- I heartily second Aaron on the CEB bullets. Took down last years Ele with a shoulder shot; recovered under the hide after penetrating the off side shoulder as well. No deformation, and it clipped a branch enroute. And any bolt rifle can be made to function with these flat nose solids. I will be using them for another Ele with Al in another week. Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
|
one of us |
Ganyana: This is a .375 Barnes Banded Solid shot into the hip of a fleeing and wounded elephant in 2009.  "There are worse memorials to a life well-lived than a pair of elephant tusks." Robert Ruark | |||
|
| one of us |
I think we are in agreement. As you say - all bullets can/do fail and all you can do is shoot the best. Antlers Double Rifle Shooters Society Heym 450/400 3" | |||
|
| One of Us |
Yep, I believe we are. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Buzz, I'll be bringing CEBs this October and again in April. I'll leave you some to try out! | |||
|
| One of Us |
SBT - thanks- you help prove the point. Just because I personally haven't seen the newer barnes fail doesn't mean they are immune. You also - very very occasionally get a click instead of a bang. Kirk Mason got a tusk through him after a misfire in his .500 a decade back. Reloaded and fired again with the barrel pressed against the cows head...didn't stop her and the ele was killed by the appie (with a .375). We try and eliminate all the variables - I carefully inspect every primer going into DG ammo, I seal in the primer and bullet. I weigh the rounds after loading as a treble check that they have powder in...I have never had a missfire and never had a bullet failure with a woodleigh in my 9,3. I have confidence in my rifle and ammo- but that doesn't give me license to be foolish or careless...At typical charge distances you have time for for one shot from a bolt rifle or perhaps two from a double- and as 465 notes, the animal may well move such that your bullet misses the CNS..I still contend that each time I have faced a charge and shot my way out of the situation is a case of 'I got away with it' again. When a good shot and very experienced PH like Waye fails to stop a charge, you can either say he ran out of luck or belive in fate. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I know Kirk Mason very well. Him and I became close friends since 1997 when he was the Zimbabwe PH on a hunt with us. I saw him just after the Elle cow hammered him. His 500Jeff had a click because he used reloaded ammo that a client left him with 600gr solids. After that he fired every one of those rounds and 4 out of about 20 had a misfire. I reloaded for him from then on as I live close to the Zim border. He was an excellent shot and very calm. I miss him a lot these days as he and his family moved to Australia a few years ago. Fritz Rabe Askari Adventures & Fritz Rabe Bow-hunting | |||
|
| One of Us |
Aaron: I beg to differ on your comment regarding 'pass-throughs'. IMO I'd rather my bullet stays within the animal, preferably under the skin, indicating that the animal has fully absorbed the energy propelling the bullet. A bullet going through an animal may well have inflicted a sufficient wound but has wasted its impact values for that specific caliber, reference of which is being made to double rifles. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I also prefer a bullet to exit completely. I would say this applies even more so when talking about solids, whose purpose in the first place is penetration! I know many folks differ on that opinion and that is fair enough. Just my preference. | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia