Is the 378 Weatherby Magnum an effective BUFFALO gun? What load and velocity do you use, if you have one? AIU

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Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
Is the 378 Weatherby Magnum an effective BUFFALO gun? What load and velocity do you use, if you have one? AIU

I think so. I don't have one now, but used one in the early '70's on buffalo. I used the old Hornady steel jackets bullets of the time and Win .270's on lighter things. Forget powder charge, but it seems like 104 gr of H4831, not sure on that, near book max at the time anyway.

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Forget powder charge, but it seems like 104 gr of H4831, not sure on that, near book max at the time anyway.

Near Max for the 378 WM is 115 grains H-4831 with 270 grain Bullets. Muzzle velocity 3100-3200 fps. If you decide to use the 378 I would high recommend SAF,TSX,Partition, North Fork or any well constructed bullet. I once shot a bull Moose at 100 yards with a Hornaday SP and the bullet came apart. And as you know Buffalo are a lot tougher. Good luck

Steve

And your next caliber for "effective Buffalo" killing question will be???

My point is that many talk about "not loading for too much velocity" - but, obviously, Weatherby had different ideas and created cartridges that produced incredible velocities and kinetic energies for maximum killing effect.

I don't hear many people complaining about how all those wounded buffalo are escaping from being shot with 375 Weatherbys, 378 Weatherbys, 416 Weatherbys, and 460 Weatherbys...etc. Do you think that the "bullet blow-up" problem is a bit overstated? I keep hearing anecdotes about how effective these cartridges are, and one would think that Weatherby would have got the message by now, if they were on the wrong track.

Regards, AIU

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Originally posted by Tom In Tennessee:
And your next caliber for "effective Buffalo" killing question will be???

The 340 Weatherby with 300 grain bullets?

I believe the bullet blow-up problem is over stated. For my next trip to Africa (Tanzania), I'll be using a 375 H&H Ackley Improved (375 Weatherby) loaded with 300 gr. Failsafes at 2930 fps and 350 gr. PP Woodleighs loaded at 2700 fps. I don't think I'll have trouble killing that trophy buffalo of a lifetime. Regards, AIU

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
I believe the bullet blow-up problem is over stated. For my next trip to Africa (Tanzania), I'll be using a 375 H&H Ackley Improved (375 Weatherby) loaded with 300 gr. Failsafes at 2930 fps and 350 gr. PP Woodleighs loaded at 2700 fps. I don't think I'll have trouble killing that trophy buffalo of a lifetime. Regards, AIU

Huh?

I get 2,800 fps MAX with 300 gr bullets in my 26" barreled .375 Weatherby. If you are getting 2,930 you either have about a 3 foot barrel on your rifle or you are overloading the shit out of it. 2,900+ with 300gr bullets is not possible safely in a .375 Weatherby or a .375 AI.

But cane what do you think is better for buffalo the 460 weatherby or 416 Roy I have no understnading of bullet stress but im sure I can push a 500 grain woodleigh to 2700 without and deformation or bending

Cane, it's possible, I'm doing it and my cases load over and over. I using a new powder called SUPERFORMANCE (just available, check it out on the Hornady web page). I use 91 grs behind 300 gr. Failsafes, moly coated and a 26.5" barrel.

But, with other bullets such as the 300 gr. Sierra BT one can get over 2900 fps with Normal MRP ~95 grs. I use compressed loads with slow burning powder. Finally, I fired some factory 375 Weatherby ammo - 300 Nosler Partition advertised to get 2800 fps - they chrono'ed at 2936 fps in my gun. But, I observed some ejector port stamping and IMO these are too hot for my gun. I pulled all the bullets and discarded the powder. Weatherby was using 89 grs of an extruded powder, which I estimate to be something like Re19 or Re17 or the like.

By the way the 375 H&H Ackey Improved has about 2 grs. of H20 more capacity than the 375 Weatherby. Finally, Quick Load shows that 2900 fps plus 300 gr velocities are possible with 375 AI and 26" barrels, when loading up to 65,000 PSI.

Regards, AIU

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
Cane, it's possible, I'm doing it and my cases load over and over. I using a new powder called SUPERFORMANCE (just available, check it out on the Hornady web page). I use 91 grs behind 300 gr. Failsafes, moly coated and a 26.5" barrel.

But, with other bullets such as the 300 gr. Sierra BT one can get over 2900 fps with Normal MRP ~95 grs. I use compressed loads with slow burning powder. Finally, I fired some factory 375 Weatherby ammo - 300 Nosler Partition advertised to get 2800 fps - they chrono'ed at 2936 fps in my gun. But, I observed some ejector port stamping and IMO these are too hot for my gun. I pulled all the bullets and discarded the powder. Weatherby was using 89 grs of an extruded powder, which I estimate to be something like Re19 or Re17 or the like.

By the way the 375 H&H Ackey Improved has about 2 grs. of H20 more capacity than the 375 Weatherby.

By the way the 375 H&H Ackey Improved has about 2 grs. of H20 more capacity than the 375 Weatherby. Finally, Quick Load shows that 2900 fps plus 300 gr velocities are possible with 375 AI and 26" barrels, when loading up to 65,000 PSI.

Regards, AIU

Thanks. I'll go check that out. Haven't used Superformance and don't care for moly bullets cause they are dirty but that seems to maybe make sense.

IMO, Weatherby factory ammo is loaded too hot. I did the same thing as you with all my .270 Weatherby factory ammo, pulled the bullets and saved the cases, fired some in my Weatherby Mark V and chronoed them and then took a look at the fired cases and was afraid to shoot the rest.

I agree you can get to 2,900 @ 65,000 psi but that is too much pressure for me to be comfortable with.

What is your rifle?

.378 works just fine- just use the right bullets. Swift A frame or Barnes TSX. Probably a good candidate to get the best out of the Northfork cup point. Forget just about any other bullet.

My main compaint is they usually come in weatherby rifles and as a theoretical point of view I find rimless cases better than belted ones.

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Originally posted by Ganyana:
.378 works just fine- just use the right bullets. Swift A frame or Barnes TSX. Probably a good candidate to get the best out of the Northfork cup point. Forget just about any other bullet.

My main compaint is they usually come in weatherby rifles and as a theoretical point of view I find rimless cases better than belted ones.

Do you mean unbelted versus belted as the .378 Weatherby is based on the .416 Rigby case with an added belt but it is still a rimless cartridge.

Cane, all my guns are custom made by a benchrest rifle gunsmith with OCD - that is trued/squared-up Rem 700 action, Sako extractor, Lilja heavy sporting contour barrel (0.82" at muzzle), heavy duty recoil lug, Jewell trigger, aluminum bedding block camo HS precision varmint stock, also glass bedded, Swarovski Z6 2x12x TDS-plex scope, Leupold Mark 4 rings/mounts, and (when hunting) Harris bipod. I chrono all loads with a Oehler of PACT chronograph and watch closely for evidence of pressure - that is, I stop when I detect very earliest and lightest case-head stamping in the ejector port. Primer pocket life is excellent. IMO running up to 65,000 PSI for a gun like this is not dangerous - brass is much, much, much softer than the steel in these first-rate bolt action rifles, which should be able to handl PSIs up to 150,000. Warm regards, AIU

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
I believe the bullet blow-up problem is over stated. For my next trip to Africa (Tanzania), I'll be using a 375 H&H Ackley Improved (375 Weatherby) loaded with 300 gr. Failsafes at 2930 fps and 350 gr. PP Woodleighs loaded at 2700 fps. I don't think I'll have trouble killing that trophy buffalo of a lifetime. Regards, AIU

Woodleigh's have recommended velocities for their bullets and I think you are way over for the 350g PP. I'd recommend you go with the 350g North Fork softpoint if you're going to be shooting them at over 2500 fps. Just a thought.

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
Cane, all my guns are custom made by a benchrest rifle gunsmith with OCD - that is trued/squared-up Rem 700 action, Sako extractor, Lilja heavy sporting contour barrel (0.82" at muzzle), heavy duty recoil lug, Jewell trigger, aluminum bedding block camo HS precision varmint stock, also glass bedded, Swarovski Z6 2x12x TDS-plex scope, Leupold Mark 4 rings/mounts, and (when hunting) Harris bipod. I chrono all loads with a Oehler of PACT chronograph and watch closely for evidence of pressure - that is, I stop when I detect very earliest and lightest case-head stamping in the ejector port. Primer pocket life is excellent. IMO running up to 65,000 PSI for a gun like this is not dangerous - brass is much, much, much softer than the steel in these first-rate bolt action rifles, which should be able to handl PSIs up to 150,000. Warm regards, AIU

Thanks!

Chuck, what are the reommended velocities for the North Fork 350 gr. Woodleigh suggests max of 2500 pfs impact velocity for the 350 375 PP Weldcore, 2600 fps for some of their other PP Weldcores. Failsafes, Accubonds, Nosler Partitions, Swift A-frames, etc. don't seem to have a recommended velocity range. AIU

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Woodleigh's have recommended velocities for their bullets and I think you are way over for the 350g PP. I'd recommend you go with the 350g North Fork softpoint if you're going to be shooting them at over 2500 fps. Just a thought.

Yep impact velocity

The woodleigh PP work extremely well up to about 2400fps impact velocity- they expand more than say a swift but don't come appart and create a bigger wound channel than various 'tougher' bullets - of course, they don't penetrate as deeply as one that doesn't expand as much.

For a client - like yourself who will be taking a chest shot a bullet that expands alot and creates anice big wound channel will be very satisfactory- you won't get 100% weight retention and thy will not look like the perfectly expanded bullets Barnes dish out at the show...but then, recovered barnes seldom match the give aways.

That said- a 350grn PP from an .375 AI is going to land above the recomended velocity if you take a close range shot. Broad side on or squarely facing you, it won't matter and the bullets will work just fine. Quatering on or away and the risk of inufficient penetration because the bullets have over expanded and not penetrated deeply enough is a real possiblity.

Why risk it? Geoff MacDonald at Woodleigh is one of the est bullet makers in the industry and he lists a maximum impact speed for his bullets because he shoots alot of aussie water buff, and he knows their performance- it is not based on a hndful of results...those impact speeds have been put together from input from many Aussie PH's and ZPHGA at least. They are Based on real shootings from several thousand buff...Why would anybody assume they know more about the terminal performance of Geoff's bullets than Geoff?

Most companies don't put a recomended impact speed on their bullets because they have never collected enough data-

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
Chuck, what are the reommended velocities for the North Fork 350 gr. Woodleigh suggests max of 2500 pfs impact velocity for the 350 375 PP Weldcore, 2600 fps for some of their other PP Weldcores. Failsafes, Accubonds, Nosler Partitions, Swift A-frames, etc. don't seem to have a recommended velocity range. AIU

Here's a quote from North Fork's FAQ page on their site:

"In conventional (full length core) bullets, the faster their impact velocities, the larger they expand, which has the result of greater drag and reduced penetration. On the other hand, North Fork bullets have reached their maximum frontal area in the 2000 to 2200fps impact range. If they impact at higher speeds, the frontal area increases very little, if at all. This relatively constant frontal area, over a wide range of impact speeds translates into increased penetration, at those higher impact speeds; same frontal area and higher momentum."

I would expect a 350g North Fork to look like their classic mushroom at impact velocities in excess of 2700 fps based on the reports I've heard here. I also am totally in line with what Don Heath has said about the 350g Woodleigh PPs (which I will use on my Alaskan brown bear hunt at 2400 fps out of my 375 H&H this fall).

Great caliber, with the case capacity to drive the 350s at moderate velocities for Buff and Ele, yet can be loaded with 250-270gr bullets for long-range Elk, Eland, etc. Quite versatile when loaded to the need.

Don, it seems that any expanding bullet will have trouble negotiating the wet-grass filled rumen of a buffalo, when shot on the left side quartering away - a shot to be avoided. Wouldn't a solid be better for the left side quartering away shot attempt? The right side quartering away should be less of issue - no rumen.

Chuck, I've ordered 50 North Forks - 350 gr 375. They're essentially TBBCs by design, and it is interesting the PO Ackley was the first to develop this bullet design. He was an amazing gunsmith, having made many seminal contributions to our sport.

Regards, AIU

Please tell me how they work out for you. I plan to load some when I go for cape buffalo. My 375 H&H will be my backup rifle in case my 500 Jeff gets lost or damaged on the way out. I plan to use my 500 Jeffery shooting 570g TSX's if all goes well on buffalo.

A .375 H&H with good 300 grain bullets will give you all the penetration, energy, or other gee whiz needed for any buffalo. All the .378 will do is make you flinch more easily and eliminate one round from the magazine. As one who once dropped a buffalo with the LAST shot from my magazine, I am not impressed with the .378.

So there you have it folks. A person who "once" dropped a buffalo with his "last" shot using a 378 Weatherby (less one round...let's not start the double rifle vs magazine rifle discussion again) is not impressed with said weapon but endorses the 375H&H (usually around 150FPS slower than the 378 weatherby at normal buffalo ranges using the same 300 gr bullets) as "gee whiz" for any buffalo. Hand me a sundowner please!

AI...most soft points will dont do well if you have to shoot through the entire rumen. My concern with your proposal is on more moderate angle shots...like quatering through the front shoulder or similar from the rear. Under such circumstances tand the fact that you are planning on landing them 200fps above recomended maximum speed (and 300fps above what I would feel happy recomending) means you can expect a bullet to flatten out like a whasher and I wouldn't gurantee that it would get through the shoulder into the chest. Fine if you shoot your buff out at 150m or so, but not at 20.

I cannot understand why a man would choose to load a bullet at speeds at which it is stated that failure can be expected.

The Woodleigh is one of the 'softer' preium bullets. As such it is a great 'all rounder'- good for leopard and fine for buff with sensible shots - within it's velocity envelope - and even then we have the occasional whine that the bullets have 'over expanded' (usually while killing the buffalo) and don't give the penetration that the user was expecting compared to the Swift/Barnes he had previously used (It isn't meant to - it is an all round bullet not a buffalo only bullet).

At the speeds you are talking it would be a fantastic leopard bullet - but a failure in waiting for buffalo.

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
Don, it seems that any expanding bullet will have trouble negotiating the wet-grass filled rumen of a buffalo, when shot on the left side quartering away - a shot to be avoided. Wouldn't a solid be better for the left side quartering away shot attempt? The right side quartering away should be less of issue - no rumen.

Chuck, I've ordered 50 North Forks - 350 gr 375. They're essentially TBBCs by design, and it is interesting the PO Ackley was the first to develop this bullet design. He was an amazing gunsmith, having made many seminal contributions to our sport.

Regards, AIU

I shot a buffalo bull facing away. Hit him in the left rear leg, the bullet penetrated his whole body, and was found just under the skin on the right side of his neck.

Bullet was our own Walterhog, out of the 375/404, starting velocity about 2800 fps.

The buffalo was about 180 yards away.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I shot a buffalo bull facing away. The buffalo was about 180 yards away.

Saeed,

It is difficult for me to imagine the circumstances under which someone as experienced as you obviously are would shoot a buffalo bull (1) facing away, and (2) 180 yards away. Would you please elaborate?

My concern is that a bullet which performed as you describe would penetrate and exit the largest buffalo when used with the much more common broadside shot, possibly wounding another buffalo, with all the grief that that entails.

I have only shot six buffalo, and all were broadside or chest shots, where my .505 caliber 570 grain bullets or .458 caliber 500 grain bullet at 2150 fps. penetrated, but did not exit.

This particular bull was standing broadside first, and I shot him in the shoulders. He started jumping around, but not going anywhere. He stayed on his feet, and turned facing away. I fired a second shot at him, hitting him as described above, and he dropped. We walked up to him, he was still alive, and I put another bullet into his head.

I have shot another bull a few years earlier, smack in the middle of his tail, using a Barnes X 300 grain bullet, at about 2700 fps.

We followed this bull for quite some time. And the only time we see him is as he disappears into the bush, with only his rear end showing.

I decided next time I saw him, and I will shoot him in the rear end.

Again, we saw him about 100 yards away, taking off in the bush.

I fired a shot at him, hitting him in the middle of his tail, just below hisanus.

He dropped at the shot. We walked up to him and finished him with anoither.

The bullet was found in his chest.

In my experience, the Barnes X will go through on a broadside shot on a buffalo most of the time.

Now I use our own Walterhog bullets, which I make here on a CNC lathe.

I have adjusted the hollow point on them so that they do not penetrate sa the one I mentioned above.

So far, I have avoided shooting any buffalo standing broadside unless he is in the clear.

Quartering is not a problem, as our current bullets never go through.

Saeed, where do you like to hit your buffalo? AIU