Referencing Will's post there seems to be an ever increasing interest (or maybe it has always been there) in 416 Rigby as a desirable cartridge. Could it be said that the Rigby variant has won the 416 wars? Let's face it there are a fair number of options for pushing 400gr at 2400fps+ in 416 caliber (Hoffman,Taylor,Remington,Dakota,Weatherby et al). I recognize that some exceed the basic formula but there does seem to appear to be a Rigby bias. What do you think?

I own a factory 416 RemMag. If I started over building one rifle I'd probably get a 375BS. If I started over on a 416 I'd go Rigby. I like getting 2400 fps in a low pressure cartridge.

I initially thought the 416Rem would have an advantage for cases, but Rem has not made any since I bought the rifle!

Don

Yes, the Rigby is the apparent "vitor" in the 416 wars as you put it for one simple reason: It does what it's designed to do better than the other clones. I do not use increased velocity as a measure of efectiveness in this caliber range ( above .40). The 416 Rem is a great cartridge, but like the previous gent says,he can't get any brass. the reason being, Remington has apparently abandoned this caliber to promote their new "ultra-nonsense" calibers. BTW, you can load a Rigby to just about equal the Weatherby's MV at a considerable increase in recoil and no real advantage at the ranges a caliber of this type is employed. Sure, the Weatherby shoots flatter, but one has no business shooting at Lion, buff, etc at extreme ranges. Part of the reason for the Rigby's success was low operating pressure. The Rem is pretty well maxed out in that case and so is the Weatherby. Like the 375 H&H, the 45ACP and Marylin Monroe, you just can't improve on greatness! jorge

The Rigby may be the "victor" on talk forums, but here in Alaska, which is one of the few places outside of Africa where there exists a hunting use for the .416 caliber, the Remington cartridge reigns supreme - brass or no brass!

.416 Rigby: lower pressure for those who want it.
.416 RemMag or others in the H&H case: With some rifles you loose one round magazine capacity with the bigger Rigby cases. In a Blaser R93 you can carry 4 rounds Rem. or 3 rounds Rigby. I would like this "fire power".

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Okay, I'll probably say "d'oh!" at the answer, but Don, what is a 375BS?

It is the proposed semi-official name of the 375/404 that Saeed uses so well. The BS stands for Bwana Saeed, unless you like it's more obvious interpretation.

Saeed doesn't seem to mind either way!

Don

There was never anything broke about the .416 Rigby so I never saw the reason for the clones except of course, Weatherby always has to have their own.

Leo
You are correct about the 416 Rigby "not being broke" exxcept there wasn't any out there in the early 70's when I needed one. I could not even find a magnum mauser action to build one on. Chatfield Taylor, came first with the shorter version. I wanted a 416 but I wanted one I could put into the standard .375 length action. Hence the .416 Hoffman and later the 416 Remington. The rem. is more practical and cheaper than the Rigby. I wrote in an articel when this all was getting off the ground, that the Remington would be the abiggest seller, because in was available in a mass produced rifle. Those who like the nostalgia calibers would go for the Rigby and those that feel they have to have the highest velocity would opt for the Weatherby. Even now, because of the somewhat shorter and lighter action and the more readily abtainable 4 shot magazine on the smaller action I will remain with the Remington type.
I have no problem with any one wanting a Rigby or Weatherby. In fact it was the Rigby, that inspired me to have a 416 caliber
I just love it.
George

George-
You bring up some good points and when it all boils down a 400gr bullet at 2400fps kills the same from one or the other. Me? I HAVE to use the Rigby, just too much nostalgia and romance associated with my particular rifle to ever use another. I have owned several Remingtons and they deliver the goods, no question. A good friend of mine who happens to be a PH in Tanzania uses one and is perfectly happy with it, in fact i think there are at least two others being used within the company.

I like the idea of the smaller action and the extra round of the 416 Remington, thats why I really like the time tested 404 Jefferys, its the best of all on paper and in the field...I can drive a 400gr. 423 bullet at 2653 FPS and safe pressure if I was amind to...

This pressure thing with the 416 Rigby is about as important and tits on a sow......
Africa isn't any hotter than Texas, Arizona, New Mexico and a lot of other places and I've never had any pressure problems with any caliber UNLESS IT WAS LOADED TOO HOT TO START WITH.....that is a hold over from the old cordite days and has become a soap box for the Rigby, Horsehockey!!! (grin)

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I am in the Rigby corner as well. As has been said, the Hoffman version may be more practical, but in a romance, where does practicality fit in? If I had even known about the Hoffman, might have went that route. BTW, really liked your book George. After reading it I came to understand how the Hoffman came to be. But still, the Rigby sounds cooler and the case is much more fun to have rolling around in your hand than the Remington version. I understand that there will be NO difference on game. The Rigby is just one heck of a cartridge case though, ain't it? Regards to all, Bill

Dear everyone:

I think it is wonderful to get some historical persective straight from the horse's mouth, vis a vis , Mr. Hoffman.

Admittedly being new to the .416 Rigby crowd, I have acquired 2 of late. Admittedly because of nostaglia and partly being ticked at Rem. for quitting to make the cases for their version.

The thing that has always bugged me about the "light weight actions" as a reason to make short case variations (like the latest, the 300 WSM) is that the darn things don't need to be heavy. The old school persists in making grossly heavy barrels which is where most of the weight is. I get tickled seeing all the "new" featherweight guns coming around. Seems like they could have done that a long time ago. If Win. can make a featherweight 300 WSM why couldn't they have made a featherweight 300 Win. Mag?

I think I understand physics and Newton and all that, but because of the stock design or whatever the one 416 Rigby weighs a little under 8 pounds but kicks less than the 10 pound 470, both of which should kick about the same. I doubt you could get a US manufacturer to make an 8 lb. 416 to save their souls.

You spend a lot more time carryin' 'em than shootin' 'em.

Will

Will-
I think if you check back a few years Winchester did make the M70fwt in 300 Win. magnum for a time. It came with a 24" barrel and weighed a bit under 8 pounds. I agree with you about the weight issue, I hate anything over 9 pounds for a long hike but I tolerate my Rigby at something over 10.
Ray-
You and a thousand others will never convince me a 404 is anything better than a 416 'cause it just ain't so!

It bears repeating, since so many are worried about brass.
I have 600 I would like yo sell..I believe Atkinson was selling them for 117.00 per 100, buyer pays the freight.Anyone interested let me know.

[This message has been edited by Santa Claus (edited 03-30-2001).]

Put my vote on the side of the Rigby. I hand loaded and was close to the Weatherby velocities, when I hunted Zimbabwe last time, and I have never seen anything drop animals like this thing did. Even when I fired some Federal factory 416 Rigby it spoke with amazing authority. With the nostalgia and my sentimental attachment the 416 Rigby will always be in my gun cabinet. Yes I have hunted with the 416 Remington and it is a VERY good cartridge. But to me the Rigby is everything. I too have fired these more agressive loads in l06 degree Nebraska heat and 5 consecutive rounds gave no hint of even being a little "sticky" in my Ruger. Yes,I'm emotionally attached now. Good Shooting, "Z"

John,
Is to, is to!!

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray,

Is not, is not.

Will

P.S.

How can a 400 gr. bullet at 2400 fps from a 404 be any differnt than a 400 gr. bullet at 2400 fps from a 416 be any different? Must be wrapped upon in that misterious physics of penetration theories.

Ray, a sow needs her tits! Pretty important, actually.

Ray,

Just one more dig. I dug up Sanchez's "Last of the Few" to review what he said. The 416 Rigby is/was his number one. What more could one say?

(Also the 375 and 500 Jeffery - but I admit I'm not man enough to take the abuse from a 500 Jeffery).

Will

Okay bear with me I've just came home from a party and I'm a bit "tipsy"!. Why should I go .416 Rigby? I have an M17 eddystone action and want to build a big rifle, I'll never shoot in Africa ( unless I win Lotto!) But like the .416 Rigby. I also like the 9.3x62 mauser and the 9.3x64 brenneke. So help me make up my mind! The biggest thing in Australia that I'll shoot is water buff and scrub bull,(I have been offered a hunt on both these animals) so what do you reckon? I respect your judgement. RAB help me out, and when you come to Australia I'll take you shooting!!!!!
Bakes

Will,

A 400 grain bullet at 2400 out of one of your own "baby" wildcats is most definitely better than a 400 grain at 2400 fps out of a common factory rifle!

Believe me, I know.

There is nothing that can improve the total performance of a cartridge than wildcatting it.

It is beside the point that you might have to use 10 grains more powder for a 100 fps more velocity - if you're lucky that is!

But, what you will notice is the incredible flatness of the trajectory and the fantastic accuracy. You have to witness the killing power to believe it. If your bullet passes with 10 feet of the animal, it drops in its tracks as if hit by a bolt of lightning!

That is why I hunt with nothing but wildcats. It makes for my lack of shooting ability!

(Everyone in the workshop are saying "TRUE, TRUE!")

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

Saeed,
Your are correct, Sir, confidence is 90% of ones faith in a rifles killing ability!!!!
George

Mike AW,
In my frustration and frenzy to correct an evil post by the more horrible of the posters, I went to pieces!!!! that should have read "tits on a boar hog". (grin)

Will,

The 404 is better because I said so!!It has a better cross section and that equates to 3.5 thousands on each side, so there ya go!! it knocks a bigger hole. ( this one ticks John S.)

Howsomever, I do have one of each.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Saeed:

Confidence, gun fit, and bullet placement is about 99.9% of it. That's the way I feel about my .470 (no wildcatting, please). I figure it if it don't stop them, I deserve to die!

From the battery of 375, 416, and 470, I have two too many. But how boring it would be.

But if you convince everyone that the .416 is better than anything else, then what would we argue about?

Will

Will, if the only rifle owned by everyone here was a 416 Rigby, I can guaran-damn-tee you that there would be endless threads on which is the best bullet brand, what weight, what velocity, which powder and primer. Not to mention actions and bbl lengths. Then we could go on to what is the ideal scope for the 416, and on and on and on.......

Bill,
O.K....400 gr bullet @ 2400-2500fps..24-25"bbl.....Hornady and swift. Controled feed and 1.5x5 leupold....Now see what you started??????

George-
I'm with you! All except for the Hornady bullets, make mine Trophy Bonded.

When I built my 375/404, ansd was ready to take to Africa on its first safari, I found that I did not have any solids for it.

I did have some Barnes Super solids in 416 caliber.

So I thought of "wildcating" 10 of those bullet by turning them down to 375.

They worked perfectly. I wonder if anyone here has done this too.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

Tried it on some Noslers; didn't work worth a damn.

I do not think an animal will notice the difference between the 416s.

HA!!!

I see I was right in 2001.

And still am.

quote:

Originally posted by white north:
I do not think an animal will notice the difference between the 416s.

Almost 10 years! You win the Necroposter of the year award!

Never had trouble getting .416 Rem brass and it costs much less than Rigby brass. The new winchester safari is chambered in .416 rem giving us a solid 1,000 dollar rifle.

Bloody hell who draged this one up?

white north, things a little slow in Nunavut this time of year? No bears to watch? You need a hobby other than reading 10 year old posts on AR.

I just want to actually see a .404 load that will push a 400 gr bullet at over 2600 FPS!! BULSHAVICK!!!



I own a .404 and like it very much but 2600+ fps with a 400 gr bullet!! I DONN THINN SO LUCY!!

2400 is doable though which makes it a better round than the .416 Rigby because it fits in a standard length action and .404 just sounds cooler than .416.

Do they still make the 416 Rigby? I thought I read that less than 100 were ever made.

An endless race, where personal opinion is the winner in the long run 416 Rigby, Rem, Dakota, Hoffman, Taylor, Weatherby, Hornady ......

At the end you need to hunt with your rifle and kill whatever it is you want to hunt, being it at 2000fps or 2600fps – Low or High pressure. If you can shoot your rifle well you can use it in any situation, to do the job at hand.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:Almost 10 years! You win the Necroposter of the year award!

LOL! You are right about that!