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| Boddington on Rifle reliability and the PH-Ian Gibson incident. | Login/Join |
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Rifle Shooter magazine CB mentions the IG incident when talking the issue of rifle reliability. -CB begins by describing himself as IGs friend and gives some details of what happened. ( I do trust CB got his info from a reliable source) -They intentionally put themselves to within 100yd of a young bull which they knew was in musth -The wind changed direction and the bull then proceeded toward him -IG tried in vain to shoo the bull off, then fired from close range-difficult shot angle which failed to stop the bull. - the RIFLE jammed for the second intended shot allowing the bull the opportunity to reach IG. and as CB starkly states in his article, the bull then went full hog and literally ripped IG apart. - CB states the rifle in question had jammed on IG on a previous leopard hunt, but he was most fortunate in that someone else on that occasion, was able stop the cat in order to prevent a mauling. ======== NO doubt this raises a few questions. but all I can say is that, its a PHs supreme responsibility to venture into the field with a totally reliable work tool. to knowingly do otherwise is plain foolish. | ||
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I am sure the PH would have preferred a better rifle-if that was the case but not everyone lives in a perfect world. | |||
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WOULD YOU BE HAPPY TO Be BACKED-UP BY A PH WITH AN UNRELIABLE RIFLE? If someone posted a thread on AR to ask: 'Would it be ok to go DG hunting in Africa with a questionable reliability rifle" what do you think the majority of responses would be?,,,,  I have no doubt that the sensible minds on AR would say its just a plain foolish idea. When ones own life as a PH , the clients life and your trackers life may well depend on it, one should make it their high priority to have a reliable rifle for the demands of PH duties. | |||
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 Mike | |||
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MJines, first you crawl up the ass and pander to a celebrity hunter who negligently shoots his PH, now you come to the defence of a PH that approaches DG with a proven unreliable rifle. ...  you just cant hide the lawyer in you.A person winding down the car window in a lion park is dumb! a PH open foot carrying a proven unreliable rifle against ele bull in musth -- is even dumber!!! or does IG get a free pass? | |||
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Again, Mike | |||
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What wrong Jines, cant you accept that a PH can be silly and irresponsible? give the forum some cheap lawyer talk..  | |||
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Uno mas, Mike | |||
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Is that it?...you have no great defence argument for a PH carrying a proven unreliable rifle? | |||
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Un plus, Mike | |||
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MJines, if you don't like or believe the report you can contact RifleShooter and C.Boddington with your disapproval. or just keeping personally fantasising that it didn't happen that way. | |||
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Einer noch, Mike | |||
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MJines only likes the good stories not the disappointing facts on the sad stories. he's the emotional sheltered type. whereas more worldly people just take the the good with the bad and don't spend their life pretending that somethings that plainly is, somehow isn't so. | |||
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Imwe, Mike | |||
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Gibbo was our PH in Zim in July 2012. My wife and I shot lioness, tuskless cow elephant, and buffalo. Gibbo chose to back us up on all three animals, multiple shots each time. He was using his Winchester Model 70 in .458 Win. Mag. At no time did he have trouble of any kind with it. I would assume until told otherwise that this was the rifle he had in hand when he was killed. Three days after that, I received an e-mail from Lolly, the camp manager, and a friend of Gibbo's from childhood. She was the first non-hunter on scene, and told me what she heard from Robert, Gibbo's long time tracker. The story was the same as the one told by CB, with the exceptions that she did not say that Gibbo was torn apart, and there was NO mention of a jammed rifle. The physical description could well have been omitted due to her grief, and I am willing to accept the idea that the rifle jam could have been discovered later. BUT...if Gibbo was indeed carrying the Model 70, then any of us with experience with one knows full well that a Mauser action will jam if you short stroke it. And most of us remember the incident a couple of years ago where Buzz Charleton's tracker was stomped by an elephant. The story was that Buzz fired a shot that did not stop the elephant, and the rifle jammed when he tried to reload. The rifle was, I believe, a Ruger Hawkeye, another Mauser clone. The cause of the jam was apparently due to the use of flat nose solids, which don't feed well from a Mauser. I recall that Gibbo had a hodge podge of ammo brands in his culling belt, since it is often difficult to obtain a reliable supply of the same type. Ian Gibson was a consummate professional, with over 30 years in the Zambezi Valley. I personally saw several big-name PHs ask his advice concerning where and how they should hunt in the Valley. Some of the armchair critics here on AR would do well to remember the phrase, "De mortuis nil nisi bonum.", concerning the dead, say nothing but good. Sometimes even the best wind up on the wrong side of a perfect storm. Leave it at that. To pillory a dead man from 10,000 miles away makes you no better than the dirt balls who spew their crap on social media. And, for the record, Gibbo never said anything negative in our presence about Craig Boddington, considering him a friend. | |||
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Mwingine, Mike | |||
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TF, I posted this subject so people can learn from it,unfortunately MJines takes an exception to it. Anything you can add or further clarify on the matter CB described would be appreciated by many I believe who read it.
Other people in the past have stated that IG is known for using a push-Feed M70 .458 but you say he may have used a CRF M70 .458
IG and CB being friends, i doubt then that CB would write an article saying IGs rifle jammed if it wasn't true. The question is,... was it a faulty rifle or just human error? | |||
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[quote]- ............... the bull then went full hog and literally ripped IG apart. I shared a safari camp with Mr. Gibson during two of my hunts in the Lower Zambezi Valley. He was a dear of mine. So, was the above verbiage really necessary to make your point (that the late Mr. Gibson's rifle malfunctioned)? DSC Life Member HSC Life Member NRA Life Member SCI RMEF | |||
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Outro, Nothing positive will come from responding. The thread was started to generate exactly the anger and emotions being expressed. If you have something to post regarding Gibbo's legacy, bring the post on Dave Fulson's article in the DSC magazine to the top. Just a suggestion. If you had any doubts regarding the purpose of the thread, consider:
Mike | |||
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Una ves mas... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Im simply relaying what was PUBLISHED in a CB article in Rifle Shooter. by all means feel free to contact the publisher and CB to express your disapproval. | |||
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Gibbo RIP! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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I have no intention or interest in stirring the pot or casting dispersion. The topic of the link is perhaps parallel and might be of interest to some. I never posted it on AR. Nothing earth shattering that has not been discussed before I realize. I thought some might find it to be of interest or thought provoking. On Dangerous Ground Shawn Shawn Joyce Diizche Safari Adventures P.O. Box 1445 Lincoln, CA 95648 E-mail: shawn.joyce@diizchesafariadventures.net Cell: (916) 804-3318 Shoot Straight, Live the Dream, and Keep Turning the Pages to Your Next Adventure!™ Website- www.DiizcheSafariAdventures.com Blog- http://diizchesafari.blogspot.com/ Twitter- http://twitter.com/DiizcheSafari YouTube- http://www.youtube.com/user/shawncjoyce Facebook- http://on.fb.me/gYytdn Instagram: diizchesafari_official | |||
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Otro tiempo... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Anger and emotions are entirely your own creation, but now you think its someone elses fault the typical shitbag lawyer in you comes out again! | |||
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But you my friend, made an intentional, conscious, and disgusting effort to perpetuate CB's graphic verbiage. Oh, you can be damn sure that I will confront CB (at the DSC) regarding his statement! DSC Life Member HSC Life Member NRA Life Member SCI RMEF | |||
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I relayed more or less what I read in the publication. Im not going to make up my own sanitised distorted version just for AR. and Take itUp with CB at DSC by all means. Maybe being an Iraq veteran he's not so sensitive & emotional to such things like other folk in general sheltered society. Matter of fact I've had a few pilots friends die and I'm not so sensitive to such things either. My friends have been dying from a young age in war and aviation. So don't naively expect everyone to be just like you, its not how the world works. But for lawyers like MJines who spend their life in litigation rather than regular risk-danger I can understand his emotional fragile state. | |||
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Por favor, no Mike | |||
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In my experience, a lot more rifles jam due to error on the part of the shooter than weapon design. Excitement, in the heat of the moment, is usually the cause. Grizz Indeed, no human being has yet lived under conditions which, considering the prevailing climates of the past, can be regarded as normal. John E Pfeiffer, The Emergence of Man Those who can't skin, can hold a leg. Abraham Lincoln Only one war at a time. Abe Again. | |||
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Trolls chupan Mike | |||
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Trax, First of all, if you and Mr Jines want to have a pissing match, then fine, but why not take it to the PM forum? It is possible that Gibbo's .458 was a push feed, but I do not remember it being so. I do remember it being very well worn. Even so, that would not be a source of unreliability. I have both a Remington 700 and a push feed Model 70 that have always been stone cold reliable. I also have a .375 Mauser that I short stroked on a moose hunt, fortunately the chamber was empty and it did not jam. I can add only a little more to the Gibbo incident. The client was an American who had one prosthetic leg, though Lolly said that he was very fit. They had been on the tracks for several hours, and the client was resting in the Cruiser while Gibbo and the trackers closed to see if the bull was worth shooting. The midday winds in Chewore North are very fickle. Perhaps more can be learned next year during the show season. As far as it being unwise to follow an elephant in musth, breaking off a track for that reason is a luxury not affordable on a two week safari. Every good track needs to be followed. And, it is probably no more risky than creeping into a bunch of "Zambezi ladies" to pop a tuskless. One top tier PH referred to that as perhaps the most dangerous hunt on earth, and another described it as,"One shot and run like hell!" As far as ammo goes, who knows? Owain Lewis was reportedly carrying a .458 bolt gun when he was killed while following up a wounded buff. His double was in camp because he had no ammo for it-a .465 H&H, I was told. Len Taylor had a .458 Lott when we shared a camp, but whether or not he had ammo for it, or was using .458 Win Mag I don't know. Sitting behind our keyboards, it is easy to forget the conditions faced by people in Africa-not too many Wal-Marts in Northern Zim. As far as lessons to be learned from this, I doubt there are any. Since a PH does not shoot often, how is a client to know whether or not the rifle a PH is carrying is reliable, or for that matter if the PH could hit the broad side of a barn under stress if he needed to? I think that the biggest problem is that today's PHs get little practice with their rifles under field conditions. Marksmanship is a perishable skill. The best we can do is to see to it that we are well practiced and sharp. | |||
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The only time I was charged for real was by a bushbuck I wounded with my Dakota .375 H&H - a top shelf bolt rifle in new condition. I short stroked the action after the first shot, and all I heard was "click" when I pulled the trigger the second time. My PH had to shoot the bushbuck with his double before it impaled me with those sharp spikes it was sporting. Stuff happens in the heat of the moment - it happened to me, and I am no rookie when it comes to shooting. Ian Gibson was a seasoned PH who had more experience than the rest of us on this forum combined. Only the people there at the time know exactly what happened, and I, for one, am not about to condemn a man many of us have looked up to for quite some time because his rifle jammed. I guess there are some folks out there who have never had a rifle jam or ever made a mistake in a pressure situation. I am not one of those, and I would submit that most of the folks smearing Ian's memory here are not either. There but for the Grace of God go the rest of us. Rest in peace Ian, and take no heed of the emotional ignorance articulated by some others. | |||
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This is a very sad event no matter what the cause especially on the heels of the Owain Lewis incident. It has to hard on all of those involved. I haven't read these articles. I don't know what happened. I have rarely had a rifle jam. When I have had it happen, it was fortunately not in a dangerous situation. I am reminded of something a wise man once told me in the 80's. He said," Son, when you are hunting dangerous game, run every single cartridge through your gun before you head out. That might save your life." I think that was good advice. RIP IG. | |||
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Tim, Good points. A lack of good gunsmithing throughout Africa is a problem as well. Regarding shooting skills of PH's; a friend of mine who was hunting with a widely renowned PH had an informal target shooting match with him using the PH's double. My friend had no experience with doubles but he absolutely wiped the floor with the PH who was astounded to put it mildly....actually he was very pissed off  | |||
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Sad but the reality is a African ph uses his rifle to a limit we never think about or very few people even in the military or le do. Think about how many times the rifle is loaded and unloaded in a day. I think Leon duPlessis and I tried counting it once and we had close to 20 times he loaded and unloaded his double during the day. That level of wear and tear over 100-200 hunting days a year and over years pretty much wears out guns. It's like why I never have any issues with my direct impingement ar rifles. I clean them every time I come back from the range. They look spotless - I don't think most combat military rifles in use have that degree of care. Sad with African and U.S. gun laws we cannot leave behind our rifles - that would be a great tip for a ph. Mike | |||
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Why engage on this issue? What's the point? It was started to simply try to besmirch a good man's legacy. The best way to address Trax is to ignore him not to debate push fed versus CRF, worn out rifles, short stroking, etc. RIP Gibbo.
Mike | |||
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+1 Admiral there are guys in the peanut gallery who will comment on someone in whose shoes they have not walked a yard or an inch. Trax has as much right to comment on Ian Gibson as I do to command a nuclear sub cause I watched a few submarine movies on Netflix. If someone should be banned from ar for being a troll he is the f@cker. Mike | |||
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This coming from someone who thought it was so important to start his own threads on CECIL the dead lion. But now wants to obstruct a thread discussion on the circumstances surrounding the death of a PH.... 
Why don't you let adult Mr. Ferrall decide for himself who he wants to respond to on AR and what he wants to address concerning Ian Gibson?
The view count of well over 600 in just a fews hrs, tells a lot of people are interested in the subject matter, so how about you and Jines curtail your egos and humble youselves to the fact both of you are just other common brick in the wall of AR and not in a position to decide anyones rights on AR. | |||
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what benefit do you get hashing over the circumstances of this mans death? you're one disturbed individual. | |||
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Why does wanting to know the proper and true details causing a PHs death mean one is a disturbed person? Why would the truth hurt you? People agreeably and in detailed fashion discuss tragic air crash investigation cases on regular basis on forums, Jets hitting NY Twin Towers 911 - was absolutely flogged to death on AR for bloody ages on a mountain of threads! 3000 dramatically dead- many relatives affected, did that stop people speculating, or discussing or asking questions in posts?...NO but now discussing one death in a DG hunting case is considered 'Taboo'?...... for-F*cK-sake get a Grip. andWhat about all those on AR wanting to know the details on CECILS death in thread, After thread, after thread? now thats truly disturbing that people are way more interested in the lead up to a lions death than a PHs tragic death. ...  ANYONE who does not like the subject of IG death being posted should contact publishers of RIFLE SHOOTER and the author of the article and friend of IG, Craig Boddington. -- all I'm doing is reflecting whats been put out on the global news paper stands and through electronic downloadable global subscriptions. MY personal view: IF its good enough for CB (as a friend of IG) to author it as he did ,knowing its going to be distributed around the world to readers , iTs then good enough to post on AR. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Boddington on Rifle reliability and the PH-Ian Gibson incident.
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