Norbert,
Thanks for the pm and the reply!

Andy, Gerard,

I am referring to cartridges like .458 Lott etc. where the nondeforming monometal copper bullets in heavier weights are overly long and space for powder is restricted and therefore the manufacturers are recommending lighter bullets with higher velocities (and faster burning rates). That is for me the wrong way, if the differences in weight are substantial more than 10 %.
I am not talking about the use of softs or deforming bullets like X or HV, but only solids for maximum penetration for e.g. frontal head shots on elephant.
A commercial cartridge manufacturer loaded 400grs/.458 2360 f/s PI around 80. No sufficient penetration. Same bullet design 500 grs/.458 for 2300 f/s PI near 130. Excellent penetration. Not on paper targets, but real eles in the bush.
I have other examples of such desasters with cartridges loaded to PI smaller than 100, especially with bigger calibers.
As softs I personally use mostly 400grs in the Lott. For ele 500 grs at 2350 f/s.

I'm with Norbert here.



Since few can take enough animals with bullets over a range of sectional densities, one has to rely on anecdotal evidence, but intuitively, a long for diameter bullet (greater weight) just makes sense for greater penetration. With solids, from my limited experience, the Penentration Index is a pretty good indicator of actual performance.



And I don't believe that any bullet, from normal hunting rifles, can be guaranteed to completely penetrate a bull elephant's skull from any angle.

I'm with Norbert on this one too, Will. He not only knows the theory behind the penetration index, he probably has applied it more than all of us combined. Norbert has shot more elephant than most of us will ever have the opportunity to hunt in our lifetimes! I hate to inquire about body count, but.....how many elephant have you taken Norbert and what rifle and bullet combinations have you used? What results can you share with us?

Come to think of it, my policy has always been to load a monolithic that is one step below the standard bullet in weight..like 350 gr. Monolithics or 400 gr. Woodleighs as they have about the same SD....

Mostly I have used the Northforks and GS Customs bullets that weigh 380 grs or there abouts in my 404s and 416s, and I have a habit of calling them 400 gr. bullets when they actually are not. A senior moment has occurred it appears, but hey 380 is close enough for Government work! At any rate most of them work fine on Buffalo....

Picking a bullet today for dangerous game isn't as tricky as it used to be, and about all of them work fine and 99% of everyone recommends the only bullet that they have used on dangerous game, and have not tried the others, which makes me wonder how they can say a certain bullet is better than the other.

It would be hard to find a "premuim bullet" today that wouldn't work on dangerous game, and that says Kudos for todays bullet makers...

I think its harder to find a bullet that is totally reliable on plainsgame, deer and antelope than it is on big stuff...Just my opine.

Quote, Gerard:
"Given the comparison within the confines of one particular cartridge, working with monometallic bullets of the same style, if the lighter bullet can be loaded to the same momentum values as the heavier bullet, penetration will be very similar."

Quote, Norbert:
"Normally, it is difficult or impossible to load lighter bullets to the same momentum values as the heavier bullets within safe pressure limits. You can�t compensate weight with velocity."

I see the merit in both statements. While it is often fruitless to utilize velocity to offset a lack of bullet weight, there are optimums to be found, especially where case capacity is limited. The two best examples of this are the .458 Lott and the .416 Remington. In both instances, the desired velocity for the bullet affording the highest SD value, often comes at the very edge of allowable pressures, if it comes at all. Also, in both instances, the next bullet down in weight offers acceptable SD numbers, along with somewhat higher velocities, due to the reduction in projectile weight and depth of seating. With the Lott, 2,300fps with 500 grain monolithics is achieved rarely at less than maximum loadings but 2,400fps is achieved handily with the 450 grain monolithic and the SD numbers are still good @ .306. With the .416 Remington, 2,400fps with 400 grain monolithics is often not achievable without incurring high operating pressures. The 350 grain monolithics, SD @ .289 are still quite long and can be driven to 2,500fps (all one might want) at lower pressures. An "optimized" weight of 380 grains, as Gerard produces, sound very much to me as the way to go for the Remington casing and I know, first hand, the 450 grain monolithics (soft or solids) will serve the .458 Lott user well.

I shot my buffalo in TZ with a 416 Hoffman using 350 Barnes X. Geo. Hoffman stepped off 161 steps and found dead buffalo with broken shoulder, blown out heart and a still 350 grn. Barnes X lodged under skin on off side.
I now have buffalo, bullet and empty shell on the wall.
Worked for me.
Page 112 in Country Boy in Africa by Geo Hoffamn and Trophy Room Books.

500 grains,

Can any of you folks confirm that Barnes is making now or plans to make a FN solid?

If so in what caliber and weights?

There is nothing on their web site about it, so assume you all have talked to them yourselves.

Do you know if they plan to make a 450 grain FN solid?

I think Gerard and Mike Brady both like to keep the monolithic solids at a SD of about .300 so they are similar in overall length to a conventional SD of .330 or so.

The 450 grain .458 in both copper (North Fork) and "naval" bronze (Barnes) are in no danger of bending due to their length. At least they were not in my tests.

I am not sure the 500 grain .458's, either X type or solid, can say that.

Please let me know what you have been told about the Barnes FN.

Andy

Bwanamrm,

quote:
"I hate to inquire about body count, but.....how many elephant have you taken Norbert"
> You have a PM. I hate to publish my body counts. My hunted elephants I used to make additional experiments and studied penetration, bullet paths etc., sometimes on eles shot by other clients. So I can evaluate many, many shots on elephants. I think it roughly numbers to about 80.

" and what rifle and bullet combinations have you used?"
> I started with a .375 Weatherby, but the knock down ability I thought was a little low. Then I used the .416 RemMag. Effectivness the same. So I came to the .458 Lott, but with modern design and High Energy powders. That proved to be an ideal cartridge for elephant hunting and I had no problems with recoil and handling. Next try was a .500 Jeffery, but no difference to the Lott but more felt recoil. So I stayed for the last seven years with my Lott, now 500grs SuperPenetrator for DG and 400 grs Woodleigh PP or Barnes X for plains game, but I will switch to 400 grs SuperPenetrator because I just discovered its extrem good performance on antilopes.
" What results can you share with us? "
>For more information, look at my website

Andy,

I do not know anything about whether Barnes will actually make a FN bullet as all I have heard is rumor.

What media did you use to test solids? I have seen monolithics deform and bend on heavy bone. Longer monolithics seem more inclined to bend.

I used the Northfork flat nose solids on Buffalo this year in the 404 and 470 and they whistled right through everything I shot with them, I did not recover a single solid....

I also used the experimental North Fork cup points and now thats a real sho nuff buffalo bullet, it knocks those old black bulls on the ground...It is a real penetrator and expands very well at the same time but with a long shaft to drive the bullet deep and straight and out the other side except on steeply angled shots lengthwise..Its a winner on all counts.

I have never experienced the effect these cup points had on Buffalo, they actually shuddered when hit and you could tell they were sick...

I would never ever ever doubt anything that Barnes says, but until they are on the shelf, and you've been through two payday cycles, it's just a rumor.

500 grains,

I used the "La Grange" stop box with 3/4 inch plywood spaced 3/4 inch apart.

the relatively short 400 and 450 grain .458's stayed point forward and are so thick I dont think they will bend. They did not bend or tumble in my rifle. But then I have a 1-12 twist and was going 2550 and 2700 fps. So they were stable.

I did not test the 220 grain .308, or 300 gr .375 monolithic but would not be surprised if they did bend.

I wish now I had tested the 500 grain Barnes in a 1-14 twist.

If Barnes does make a 450 and 500 gr FN, the guys on this web site are responsible for it!

PS Saeed is posting the full text of my FMJ test on the new on-line magazine complete with photos. Ive already sent them to him. Things happen fast!

Andy

I have to add:
There is another, very important reason to use bullets with SD >0.3:
We don�t know exactly the drag function in animals and it must be very complicated. But one fact is for sure: The heavier bullets are less decelerated than the lighter ones. Heavier bullets loose less velocity during their travel through the target. That means: heavier bullets keep their momentum, lighter bullets loose more momentum on their travel through the body. And keeping momentum results in deeper penetration.

No offense to Mr. LaGrange or his wooden box design, but bullets which survive a pass through plywood unscathed often deform when they strike heavy bone. The only way to be sure how a bullet performs is to shoot several elephants with it.

500 grains,

I would agree. But before you actually shoot that elephant, it is certainly useful to see what works in the stop box.

Many people on this forumn would have used the 500 grain Kodiak FN, but my test proved it actualy expanded and had the least penetration of any 500 grain FMJ bullet.

Better to find out at home than 5 feet away from jumbo.

Same with the 400 grain Barnes solid from the 450 Dakota. The Penetration Index says it is fine, but the stop box doesnt.

This helped me standardize on the 450 grain bullet weight, which works fine in both bonded soft point and solid.

It is very much "conventional wisdom" to select FMJ bullets with a SD of .300 or more, but this is one case where the conventional wisdom really is true.

Andy

Andy,

I agree that it is best to find out as much as possible in advance, and it is not my intention to critize your tests. In fact, I have not seen your report of the penetration test of solids, and if you have it available I would love to read it. But I found, much to my surprise, that even hard brass bullets deform and bend on heavy bone, but that they still usually penetrate in a straight line.

Did you see any Woodleigh solids deform in the LaGrange box?

No medium is the same as flesh and bone, but most mediums will give one a comparison between bullets...

I have seen a Speer AGS that broke in two pieces..Ron van Heerdens, an old time PH with many elephant under his belt (over 800), showed me a cigar box full of failed bullets and pointed out the Speer AGS or its predesor (Trophy bond)....He also had two Barnes monolithics, one bent and the other broke in half, he had Woodlieghs also that fishtailed and smeared along with many others....

It convienced me that any bullet produced by man can fail...and I have seen failures in most bullets, it is simply a fact of life, but fortunately it is the rare exception rather than the rule, and that says a lot for todays bullet makers, those guys are good!