Here is the scenario, you contract a package hunt with an outfitter for a set price. At the conclusion of the hunt, said outfitter claims that is not what the contract is and charges you more money for the hunt than originally agreed upon, despite having a copy of contract. Said outfitter then threatens to not send trophies if bill is not paid according to what he thinks you owe vs. what the contract says.

Outside of trying to be reasonable and negotiate a settlement, assuming a settlement can't be reached what courses of actions would you take.

Assuming the facts as stated, the outfitter should abide by the written contract. The next question is whether the contract addresses nonperformance and remedies. I assume that it does not.

I would tender the amount stated in the contract to the outfitter with the understanding that he will ship the trophies. If he took it without reserving the right to controvert the unpaid amount, I would expect him to perform, ie, send the trophies.

If he did not take it, I would leave and send him a copy by registered mail of a letter offering to pay a designated escrow agent the original amount of the contract pending resolution of the dispute and for the matter to be mediated by the professional hunting organization in his country, with the understanding that if they decide in his favor you will pay the added amount, and if you win he will ship the trophies.

If he accepted the offer to pay but reserved performance, I would only make payment if he agreed to the provisions indicated above for mediation. The reason, is the alternative below.

An alternative if he will not agree to ship upon payment of the money, is to keep the money and the trophy pictures and book another hunt next year with a reputable outfitter.

A good contract should alway address the issue of nonperformance. Kudude

Phoenixdawg,

Safari contracts don't seem to be worth all that much to the client, but they are better than nothing. I've found the verbal agreements reached before the contract is written are the important things. If things get to this stage, I wouldn't be worrying about staying friends or preserving the relationship for the next hunt. I'd be looking for a pound of flesh and my trophies (in no particular order). If I truly thought I was in the right, I wouldn't even pay the balance on the contract until everything was settled. I'd get the local PH's association involved. Then I'd tell him to piss off, shove the trophies and post all the details on the various hunting boards. I'd have my memories and photo's and the outfitter would be left with his bills and lost potential clients. There are enough good outfitters around that when I do an internet search on a company, finding a polite,credible and well documented complaint is more than enough to put an outfitter on the reject pile. I personally wouldn't be the first to bring in lawyers, but if the outfitter went that way, I'd respond in kind and be aggressive about it.

Having said all that, I haven't had this kind of problem and am in the habit of sending trophy fees etc. to the outfitter's agent before I even get on the plane. Of course I trust the agents, who are in NA where I trust the legal system more should that trust be misplaced.

Hope this is all hypothetical,
Dean

As mentioned above, I'd post the info on the various internet boards.

But! As has been done on AR before, I'd include lots of lurid, unseemly and improbable details like cook/ prostitutes, male cosmetics, broken promises, shattered friendships, undersized trophies,...............you know, the juicy stuff. Let it drag on for days if not weeks! Get a bunch of forum members involved that have nothing to do with the situation, no ability to assist, but sure have a strong opinion! Get the topic as absolutely low brow as it could possibly go, leave no shred of dignity available to anyone even reading the post much less having anything to actually do with the situation.

I'm kidding of course. Sorry about that. I thought it might be a little funny. I hope your missunderstanding rectifys itself without further delay or bad feelings.

If this is relating to your recent Namibian hunt, I'd contact NAPHA and see what they can do for you.

Like Gatogordo, I think your best hope is to get the local PH association involved - assuming the outfitter is a member. Maybe a little peer pressure will help solve the problem.

Let us know what happens!

quote:

Originally posted by Phoenixdawg:
Here is the scenario, you contract a package hunt with an outfitter for a set price. At the conclusion of the hunt, said outfitter claims that is not what the contract is and charges you more money for the hunt than originally agreed upon, despite having a copy of contract. Said outfitter then threatens to not send trophies if bill is not paid according to what he thinks you owe vs. what the contract says.

Outside of trying to be reasonable and negotiate a settlement, assuming a settlement can't be reached what courses of actions would you take.

Why are there so many Outfitters that have the business integrity of a $50 hooker?

I suppose at least with a hooker shes up front thats shes going take your cash and screw you!

How much more is he talking about?

If you have a contract, and the terms are precise, you do have rights under the contract. With that said, it may boil down to how much your trophies are worth to you. If the trophies are held up until the contract claim is resolved, there may be nothing more than a rotten mess at the end of the day.

In addition, it is not an inexpensive proposition to move the dispute to a court. If the amount is small enough, you can try to do it on your own in small claims court. That is, if the outfitter is in the US.

I can understand how steamed you would get when someone has "kidnapped" your trophies and is holding them for ransom. What you may haved to do is to pay the added amount under protest clearly documenting the fact that you are doing so only for the purpose of getting your trophies and reserving all your rights, claims and defenses to assert your legal rights in the future.

If it is a US outfitter, you can then start the laswuits once your trophies are in hand. If it is a foreign outfitter, you have somewhat of a quandry getting jurisfidction over the individual. If they are regular attendeees at US shows, you can have them served there.

The outfitter sounds like a real piece of work.

quote:

Originally posted by Phoenixdawg:
Here is the scenario, you contract a package hunt with an outfitter for a set price. At the conclusion of the hunt, said outfitter claims that is not what the contract is and charges you more money for the hunt than originally agreed upon, despite having a copy of contract. Said outfitter then threatens to not send trophies if bill is not paid according to what he thinks you owe vs. what the contract says.

Outside of trying to be reasonable and negotiate a settlement, assuming a settlement can't be reached what courses of actions would you take.

I'd sure like to hear the other guys side of this.....assuming there is one!

what kudude said +1

Before this spins out of control into a he said/she said..I'll defend MY PH to the end,you wear makeup,he hired a hooker; type of thread....

What are the additional charges for?

If you have a package,was there a difference in trophy/non trophy?Charge to pick up at airport,deliver to Windhoek,etc?

Assuming that this hunt was your Namibia trip,you can call NAPHA.They will get involved to help settle a dispute.When I was in thier office last Sept.they were helping a guy from Texas.As I sat there one of the NAPHA people chewed the ass off some outfitter on the other end of the line.Was worked out on the spot.

You also could use Don Causey's Hunt Report to get a responce.Your outfitter has 7 good reports,and would most likely not want a recent bad one.

But in the end cooler heads will most of the time prevail.Don't forget there is a cultural difference when hunting abroad,so try(even though I know it can be hard)to treat it as a buisness decision.If it takes a little to get your trophies than go for it....

Once they are home...You can make a move on your end...post the names on this and other forums.I'm doing buisness,unrelated to hunting,with a PH from Namibia.They will get the message if you choose to try and hurt them.This is a buisness,thats your advantage.Bad publicity hurts in the long run.

good hunting dan



for those who keep track of such things,I just increased my post count by...one

Who was the hunt through?

Who was the booking agent?

at this point in time, I am not going to discuss the ins and outs of the hunt except to say, I had a contract, the contract was not honored. The contract was for a package hunt and when it came time to settle the bill, the bill turned out to be about 1,000 more per man than should have been, the costs were calculated on a daily rate/trophy fee scenario. The way the charges were calculated were correct if that was the way the hunt was booked, but it was not booked that way and the booking and terms were validated with multiple emails prior to arrival on the hunt.

I have seen these things spin out of control on the internet and that is not my intention. I have a preliminary course of action and prior to my putting this into the works, I wanted to see how others would handle if in the same scenario.

Phoenixdawg,

I wish you the very best of luck and a satisfactory and speedy resolution of the problems you are encountering with the Hunting Outfitter.

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

It sounds like the hunt is over and you are back in the States...so tell us, how did you handle it?

To sue someone in Namibia the plaintiff has to be personally present. So that option is probably not too practical.

If you are paid up in full, then you don't have any real options. Don't make too many waves til your trophies are at the taxidermist and the export papers are in place. Then you can do the bulletin board stoning and report him to the PH assoc.

If you only paid what you contracted to pay and he is holding your trophies hostage, then he has already declared war so fire away any way you can. One interesting option is to hire a private detective to dig up some dirt on the guy and then you send that to his wife. That sort of revenge is particularly sweet.

If you didn't pay anything (which is what I would have done), then tell him you will pay the balance owing (according to the contract) once the trophies are delivered to the taxidermist. Make sure the taxidermist has the required paperwork. Then pay him and be done.

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:
One interesting option is to hire a private detective to dig up some dirt on the guy and then you send that to his wife. That sort of revenge is particularly sweet..

Phoenixdawg,
Good luck.

L

quote:

Originally posted by Lorenzo:

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:
One interesting option is to hire a private detective to dig up some dirt on the guy and then you send that to his wife. That sort of revenge is particularly sweet..

Phoenixdawg,
Good luck.

L

Lorenzo, you are not wrong with your eye-openers on those comments.

I'm just curious, did you have a copy of the contract or the relevant emails with you? If so, did you show them to the outfitter at the time of this dispute and he disavowed them or what?

As Russ said, what did you do? Did the hunters pay the extra fees?

yes I had copies of the contract, did not have the relevant emails with me, but I do have them. Issue was the outfitter chose not to acknowledge the contract. We have paid to date the contracted amount, the balance is to be paid by wire, but I have not done so as of yet. Supposedly, the trophies are sitting at IFN awaiting shipment to the US.

If you are not willing to tell him to shove the trophies then more than likely you will have to pay.

Personally I would tell him to keep the trophies and file negative reports.

It sounds like the recommended course of action is NOT to pay the increased amount when settling up but just pay what you believe you contracted for. That gives you options ie. pay the increased fees in order to get your trophies. Not pay the increased fees and run the risk of not getting your trophies. Attempt to negotiate something in between. After all this, if you complain on public forums then you still run the risk of you being accused of badmouthing someones favorite PH or outfitter (eg. "I never had a problem therefore it must be your fault"), along with my perennial favorite: "There are always two sides to every story", which runs a close second to the other piece of BS;" If there are two different opinions then the truth must be somewhere in between". You will then probably be accused of being a bad shot, a crossdresser, fondling the staff etc.
Peter.
Peter.

For sure post the name of the outfit, if an acceptable resoloution is not met. I would deffinately contact the Professional Hunters assoc of the country the hunt was in. Best luck to you and I hope you are able to get your trophies back without more monetary issues..........

Oh yeah I would also go to the conventions in Jan and purchase, fron one of the curio booths, one of those petrified bull penises that they make into walking canes......find the outfitter and shove it up his ass, so he can see what it feels like to get screwed. Then I would pobably use it on his head....

If it went down the way you say, the guy is nothing better than a common, lowlife thief.

Phoenixdawg

Is it possible to copy the contract and e-mails onto this thread for us to see? You can delete names etc. at this stage while you are still keeping that info confidential.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
It sounds like the recommended course of action is NOT to pay the increased amount when settling up but just pay what you believe you contracted for.

I don't understand this advice.

Assuming the facts as stated here are true. Why would anyone pay anything more, even the agreed upon price until there is a successful resolution to the problem of the trophies being held back for EXTRA NOT AGREED charges?

I would put my case in writing to the outfitter with copies of the emails and any signed agreement detailing how everything fits within what is agreed and also discuss it on the phone.

If that doesn't work I would be going to the Professional Hunters association in that country, assuming the outfitter is a member and also the gov't licensing board with a complaint.

Then finally broadcast wide and clear sticking to the FACTS ONLY in hunt reports in as many places as I could.

But if the extra money was minor and you want the trophies and the outfitter is intracable, maybe they believe they have the right facts themselves afterall, then I would pay for them and get it moving.

If you don't care about the trophies leave them where they are. Or the extra amount is totally unreasonable I would take it much further.

Of course there are often more than one side to an argument and hearing only one side does not give the full picture. GOOD REASON to have WRITTEN DOCUMENTATION before the safari is committed to for every safari.

I would not pay more. I know I may forfeit the trophies, but I will stand on principal on an issue like this. I would also take it up with my booking agent. If you booked direct then you may have no easy recourse.

I re-iterate my ask to view the details...

Contrary to what many may believe, contract law in many African countries is reasonably easy to argue. South Africa would be very easy. So should Namibia, Botswana and even Zim!

These countries mostly have law based on English/Roman-Dutch principals, and many "reputable" attorneys. It all depends on the wording of the contract AND other correspondence.....

Nitrox, please explain your post wherin you quoted me. The original post by phoenixdawg asked for suggested courses of action. I was merely trying to summarise the responses to his post. Was my summary incorrect?
Thanks, Peter.

I would not pay either, I have no problem forfeitting the trophies.

I had a similar problem with my PH in 2005. I would not hesitate to stick them with the trophies.

If Africa is in your blood, you will see more Africa. If you see more Africa you will kill more African animals and have more chances to bring more game back at a later date.

quote:

Originally posted by silwane:
For sure post the name of the outfit, if an acceptable resoloution is not met. I would deffinately contact the Professional Hunters assoc of the country the hunt was in....

If it went down the way you say, the guy is nothing better than a common, lowlife thief.

You may want to do this, you may not.

I can guarantee if you post the PH's name, you will be villified for interfering with his business, called many names, perhaps have your manhood questioned...

The Ph may come on and reveal, only after a complaint is made against him, that you and your friends are first class assholes, terrible shots, drunkards, gay and whiney. If you do not believe me, see recent posts.

And do not count on any kind of "fair play" from many members of this board, chances are, they will jump in and ream you as much or more than the PH.

The consensus seems to be that PHs can do no wrong, and when issues come up, it has to be the dumAss hunter's fault "because no one else has complained" or the "hunt wasn't booked that way"..

I think you are just SOL-

It really isn't too hard to figure out who the outfitter probably is........

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/...=472108088#472108088

quote:

Originally posted by M16:
It really isn't too hard to figure out who the outfitter probably is........

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/...=472108088#472108088

Ruh-roh

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Nitrox, please explain your post wherin you quoted me. The original post by phoenixdawg asked for suggested courses of action. I was merely trying to summarise the responses to his post. Was my summary incorrect?
Thanks, Peter.

Peter

I was referring to the "just pay what you believe you contracted for" which has been common in many replies.

Personally if the facts are as stated here, and an outfitter is attempting to pressure the client into paying more money than agreed, without justification, and I had money still owing on the agreed amount, then I would seek a resolution to the issue of the total owing before paying any more of the agreed amount. Putting the reasons in writing and evidence for the non-payment.

If the client decides to chuck in the trophies because the demands for extra $$$ why throw away good money. Also a means of reaching a compromise.

Nothing personal to your post at all BTW.

But maybe all the agreed fees were paid in Africa as is usually the case so a moot point.

However we do not know both sides of the argument and sometimes clients also get it wrong or misinterpret deals or changes to deals.

Nitrox, thanks for the clarification. That is certainly a different take ie. don't pay anything more (not even what you think you owe) until the issue of the total due is resolved. I would doubt whether the PH/Outfitter would let you leave without paying something! I was under the impression that the differences were not resolved and that most folks were recommending "pay what you think you owe". Am I wrong or am I seeing more of these disputes between client and PH/Outfitter than in previous years?
Peter