There are no canned Hunts!

It is about time that hunters and Hunting organization object strongly against and distance themselves from canned shooting of animals!

If we as hunter even call this canned shooting –canned hunting we digging our own grave! We should make it clear that canned hunting does not exist and we as hunters distance us from any type of canned shooting!

We the hunters must make it clear to the public that we condemn this and caned shooting got nothing to do with hunting!
We have to protest sharply every time the term caned hunting is used! Only then we can gain credibility with the public much needed broader acceptance!

We as hunters have to police our self and clean up our act otherwise we will loose eventually hunting. We are scrutinized by the public and we have to move from being defensive to being proactive! Hunting organization and hunter failed for many years to increase the numbers of new hunters, why? We have to promote hunting as part of utilization and conservation of habitat, wildlife and cultural heritage.

And yes there are ethics involved and there is only one basic ethic rule.

I am sure it is Germany where the hunting law refers to “the written and unwritten ethics of hunting†so the common ethics, not written down, are part of the law and get applied in court, this seems to be working well for a long time.

Each of us has to get used to differentiate between hunter and shooters (of animals)

I can tell you that the greenis and the public read hunters forums and publications and use this information to attack hunting in case of greenis and to make they mind up about hunting in case of the public.

Look at the 2 samples

.. on the weekend I blasted with my new super duper xyz magnum 200 prairie dogs and the new xyzf bullet at 3500ft/sek blow them to shreds ….

Or

.. on the weekend I helped a framers friend to keep the overpopulation of prairie dogs under control. We selectively took 200 PD of the area to reduce the population to a more sustainable level. The equipment we used was a xyz rifle and we used successfully xyz bullet which killed instantly on impact without wounding … blah blah….

Which one is the more acceptable to the public?


Good Hunting

Neither. The 'public' sees 200 hundred harmless furry creatures blown to pieces.

The "public" doesn't want to be reminded, or informed, or shown the killing of any animals. A few days ago I watched a TV news documentary about the hog raising business in Germany, showing the "new" technology of gassing the hogs while in an elevator before butchering them. A very assembly line type industrial process. Try showing that on TV in the USA. People don't want to know that their hot dogs or pork chops require the killing of animals.

Speaking of Hot Dogs.....

Animal Rights Group sues over "Dodger Dogs" for Baseball....

http://www.foxnews.com/video2/player06.html?060607/0606...US&-1&News&127&&&new

quote:

in the USA. People don't want to know that their hot dogs or pork chops require the killing of animals.

That is so true, sad, but so true!!!

If something happened and our country had to revert back to folks living on small farms growing and butchering what they ate, 90+% of our population would starve to death with in a year.

As I have said before, canned Lion hunting takes the hunting pressure off of the already over hunted wild Lions, the road to hell is paved with good intentions guys! The public that whines about our sport is not worth our bother simply because they want all hunting stopped, the worse thing we can do is bow to their needs...

I get scathing emails every day from non hunters, most I answer and explain our side of the story, and surprisingly enough I get apoligies and request for more information, but these are mostly young kids, the adults have reached a point of no return.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

in the USA. People don't want to know that their hot dogs or pork chops require the killing of animals.

That is so true, sad, but so true!!!

If something happened and our country had to revert back to folks living on small farms growing and butchering what they ate, 90+% of our population would starve to death with in a year.

ledvm,

I agree 100%, but you know, that might not be such a bad thing. Survival of the fittest, right? I know it sounds harsh, but hey, life is harsh. Life aint a friggin' Disney movie.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
As I have said before, canned Lion hunting takes the hunting pressure off of the already over hunted wild Lions, the road to hell is paved with good intentions guys! The public that whines about our sport is not worth our bother simply because they want all hunting stopped, the worse thing we can do is bow to their needs...

I get scathing emails every day from non hunters, most I answer and explain our side of the story, and surprisingly enough I get apoligies and request for more information, but these are mostly young kids, the adults have reached a point of no return.

This is the crux of the issue if we as hunter speak about canned hunting what this type of shooting got to do with hunting?? If we don’t see a different or we are to lazy to point out the different then we deserve no better judgment from the public.

Canned lions shooting do not takes any pressure of the wild lion populations all what it does it make it a comparable cheap way to kill a lion compared to proper lion hunting.
If lions are over hunted at some areas this got nothing to do with excessive demand it would be a matter of incorrect quota setting for this lion population. Lion numbers are always and foremost restricted by available habitat and this is the biggest constrain on lion numbers in the wild.

I think the underlying concern is that lion hunts would become even more expensive because of the limited supply. (quota)

And by the way hunting is not a sport call it tradition / instinct / hobby but never call it a sport.

Cheers

quote:

, that might not be such a bad thing.

Agreed!!!!!!!!!!

The folks that shoot the canned Lions pay big bucks for those big black manned pets, when they can no longer do that, they will shoot the wild Lions, and if you think different that is your choice, but I disagree..

IMO, however many canned Lions are shot, that is how many wild Lions are not hunted by these people.....

Most plainsgame is hunted behind high fence in RSA, and not many complain about that because it has become acceptable, how then are Lions exempt from this rule? Man is a funny animal if you stop and think about it, he makes up s--t that suits his own agenda.

I have not hunted nor booked Lions behind fence, but I have plainsgame, shame on me with some, and so what with others? Most on this forum that have hunted Africa have taken game behind a high fence...

Now that I know better, I wouldn't do it again, unless we're talking a 100,000 acres or so under fence.

Mufasa in a can.

Not the same a Betsy in a burger. You will never win that arguement. Better to stick to science and appeal to reasoned people.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
The folks that shoot the canned Lions pay big bucks for those big black manned pets, when they can no longer do that, they will shoot the wild Lions, and if you think different that is your choice, but I disagree..

IMO, however many canned Lions are shot, that is how many wild Lions are not hunted by these people.....

Most plainsgame is hunted behind high fence in RSA, and not many complain about that because it has become acceptable, how then are Lions exempt from this rule? Man is a funny animal if you stop and think about it, he makes up s--t that suits his own agenda.

I have not hunted nor booked Lions behind fence, but I have plainsgame, shame on me with some, and so what with others? Most on this forum that have hunted Africa have taken game behind a high fence...

Wrong. Not the same market at all.

Anyone who wants a free ranging, wild lion, is not in the market for a zoo animal.

Mrlexma,
With all respect to your post, thats the business that I am in and have been for many years, and I call it the same market, the Lion market...

Where and with whom do you book canned lion hunts?

quote:

Originally posted by freischuetz:
There are no canned Hunts!

It is about time that hunters and Hunting organization object strongly against and distance themselves from canned shooting of animals!

If we as hunter even call this canned shooting –canned hunting we digging our own grave! We should make it clear that canned hunting does not exist and we as hunters distance us from any type of canned shooting!

Good Hunting

freischuetz, first we need to define "CANNED", then worry about shooting or hunting! The existance of a fence does not necessarily make a hunt, or shoot canned. It ain't that simple! The type of quary, and the size, and condition of the land within the fence is far more important to defining the hunt/shoot, canned/non-canned status!

The general use of the word "CANNED",to define hunting anyplace where a fence is involved, is just as bad as calling "SHOOTING"in a pin, hunting!

By calling anything behind a fence "CANNED", you are takeing a word right out of the anti-hunting crowd's hand book for the stopping of all hunting everywhere!

I agree, the species being hunted, depends on many things, not just a fence, and some are truley canned if the conditions behind the fence do not suit the animal being hunted, then it becomes shooting. but the fence was not the only dicideing factor!

IMO, Most people, on both sides of hunting, and anti-hunting, lie by omission, because of their bias,or simply do not know what they are talking about,one way or the other.

All I'm saying is, we are as bad as the antis when it comes to hurting the activity of hunting. This is a persuit that has been in man from the cave to the highrise, and is as engrained in our souls as is breathing!

The above is just one man's opinion, and I don't care to get into the contests, these things always lead to, but that is my opinion, and maybe, it will provoke some thoughts to pop into the collective heads, here, that were't there already.

I must side with freischuetz.

The hunting of a Lion in a 3 acre pen (give or take an acre), can not, under any circumstance, be considered sporting. It is an abomination. It is total disrespect for the animal, and for the sport of Lion hunting.

It is the bad apple that needs to be removed, a cancer on the face of the industry. It is the example that the anti's use to define our sport. It has no place in an ethical sporting community and it is an embarrassment to me as an ethical hunter.

The hunting of caged Lions does not take pressure off of wild Lions. That is what hunting quotas are for.

I am not opposed to hunting Lion behind a fence. When the fence ceases to play a role in the outcome of the hunt, and the terrain and cover offer an escape for the game, it becomes more acceptable. I am not opposed to high fenced operations. A proper hunt can be had in a high fence. Whether it is for Lion or Fallow Deer or Whitetail.

I do not wish to impose my views on other hunters, I also do not wish for other hunters to make a mockery of my sport.

Some will say that I am giving the anti's ammo against our sport by speaking out against this practice. On the contrary. The hunting of Lions in a small pen is the best ammo the anti's could ever wish for.

quote:

Originally posted by Wendell Reich:
I must side with freischuetz.

The hunting of a Lion in a 3 acre pen (give or take an acre), can not, under any circumstance, be considered sporting. It is an abomination. It is total disrespect for the animal, and for the sport of Lion hunting.

It is the bad apple that needs to be removed, a cancer on the face of the industry. It is the example that the anti's use to define our sport. It has no place in an ethical sporting community and it is an embarrassment to me as an ethical hunter.

The hunting of caged Lions does not take pressure off of wild Lions. That is what hunting quotas are for.

I am not opposed to hunting Lion behind a fence. When the fence ceases to play a role in the outcome of the hunt, and the terrain and cover offer an escape for the game, it becomes more acceptable. I am not opposed to high fenced operations. A proper hunt can be had in a high fence. Whether it is for Lion or Fallow Deer or Whitetail.

I do not wish to impose my views on other hunters, I also do not wish for other hunters to make a mockery of my sport.

Some will say that I am giving the anti's ammo against our sport by speaking out against this practice. On the contrary. The hunting of Lions in a small pen is the best ammo the anti's could ever wish for.

Well said Wendell - I am 100% with you!

Wendell you say that you side with freischuetz. He begged all to object to using the term "canned hunting", yet you speak of "hunting" a lion in a 3 acre pen?

I too side with freischuetz and will from the moment that I've read his posting not refer to "canned hunting". Instead I will use the term "canned shooting" for any shooting where I feel the outcome of the search for something to shoot is tipped artificially in favor of the shooter, be it the size of the pen, the drugs injected into the animal before the shooter sets out in search or whatever method was used to tip the scales in favor of the shooter.

The term "hunting" I use for activities that are: (i) Perfectly legal in every respect and within the spirit of the law (ii) where they animal being hunted has a very good chance of escaping (the inevitable eventual) death on the day it is being hunted, (iii), etc.

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren.

The hunters I like being around are the type that represent our sport ethically. Hunt because they enjoy it. Don't carry a chip or ego on their shoulder. Don't shoot game to impress someone else. Don't look to blow themselves up bigger than they are. Don't go looking to start an argument everytime they sit down next to someone. And don't bore me with body counts.

In over fifty years of hunting I've never had to defend what I do. If people ask, I tell them. Some are interested in hearing more. Some aren't. No one has ever chastized me for being a hunter.

Quite a few of my co-workers hunt. We all know one simple truth. This is coming to an end because hunters, like wild game, are being squeezed to the fringes of society.

Being a good provider for your family no longer requires hunting game for food. We do it because we enjoy it.

The only way for hunting to survive is to allow someone to make money from it, unfortunately. If the powers-that-be don't see value in wild game they won't care if it vanishes.

I think at some point in the distant future all hunting will be RSA style hunting. I'm glad I won't be around to watch the real thing end.

I think it is a waste of time to try to define a canned hunt. If the game can't jump the fence, go under it, or through it I would say you've pretty well stacked the deck, and he's dead, whether you have any hunting skills or not.

Mrlexma,
I don't book canned Lion hunts, I have never booked a canned Lion hunt, I have no problem with booking agents that do...

I happen to disagree with your point of view, I see little reason for your sarcasm over a disagreement.

I believe that canned Lion hunting is a good thing, just like I believe fenced hunts in Africa serve a purpose.

Do away with canned Lion hunts and I assure you the demand for wild lions will increase considerably, therefore the cost of Lion hunts will skyrocket and few people other than the jet setters of huntland will be able to afford to hunt a lion.

I also see a pocket for greedy 3rd world politicians to make some extra spending money, what's a couple of extra male Lions...Remember that Lions are the most difficult of all animals to manage as the take over male will eat the cubs when the alpha male is shot.

Should canned Lion hunting be stopped then I assure you that I will only benifit from it financially, as I make my commission off the cost of the hunts. My wild lion hunts now are $39,990. plus a $3200. trophy fee, when the demand increases that will jump to who knows how much, but $100,000 wouldn't surprise me...That will put a lot of lion hunters out of business and my profit will increase. frankly I don't want that to happen.

But the bottom line is, its up to guys like yourself to keep a cool head, think about what you wish for, you just might get it...

As for me I will probably retire from the hunting business before too long, and leave it in your capable hands.

Atkinson,

Sorry to ruffle your feathers, but you claimed that canned lion hunting is good for lions because it reduces demand for wild ones. You further claimed that there is no distinction, in market terms, between the hunting of canned lions or wild and free-ranging lions. You claimed it is one unified market.

Those claims just don't hold water, IMHO.

Wild lions benefit from canned lion hunting as much as fish benefit from bicycles. Lion populations and hunting quotas determine wild lion supply. The supply of wild lions is largely inelastic. Supply does not go up merely because demand may be high. Prices go up. Not supply.

As for who may be in the market for that supply, it is axiomatic that very few hunters - and by hunters I mean people who know what it means to pursue wild and free-ranging animals - have any interest in shooting a captive-bred animal, especially a lion, in a relatively small (and certainly non-sustaining) area behind a high fence.

IMO, it's very revealing to see how those who defend canned lion hunting, as well as many who actually support it, fall all over themselves in claiming that they don't do it themselves, or that they don't book for others who do. That pretty much says it all as far as I am concerned.

As for prices and odds, for wild lions the price is high and the odds are long - and one thing is for sure, prices will go higher, although with the help of good conservation practices and a bit of luck, the odds may hold. That's just the way it is and will be, and no one can change that.

quote:

Originally posted by Kensco:
The only way for hunting to survive is to allow someone to make money from it, unfortunately. If the powers-that-be don't see value in wild game they won't care if it vanishes.

I think at some point in the distant future all hunting will be RSA style hunting. I'm glad I won't be around to watch the real thing end.

I think it is a waste of time to try to define a canned hunt. If the game can't jump the fence, go under it, or through it I would say you've pretty well stacked the deck, and he's dead, whether you have any hunting skills or not.

Sadly, I fear you are right.

I will realistically never have the money to go on a lion hunt in Africa, canned or free range. But here in the US, I have seen to many "hunters" proudly proclaim that they shot their latest trophy in a 10 foot pen.

That isn't hunting, that is butchering. I grew up on a farm, and that doesn't bother me (butchering), but it isn't hunting. Hunting is using your skill to track down an animal that has a good chance of eluding you. Hunting is working to actually find the game, learn its habits, and then take the game cleanly.

I have said before and will again. I have more pride in the one antlered white tail buck that I had to actually hunt that many who have shot trophy elk in a pen.

Mrlexma,
I will tell you one more time I have never booked a canned hunt for Lions or any other animal. If you think that you can prove otherwise I will be more than glad to make you a nice financial wager, put up or shut up on that score.

Other than that you have not ruffled my feathers and I respect but disagree with your opinnion, but would defend with my life your right to believe what you wish.

I believe that I am right on this subject, so I suppose we must let time tell.

Latest poster for "canned lion" proponents

Look closely at the blurred background. Can you 'see' the electric fence? I think I can.



Andrew McLaren

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I will tell you one more time I have never booked a canned hunt for Lions or any other animal. If you think that you can prove otherwise I will be more than glad to make you a nice financial wager, put up or shut up on that score.

I never said that you did book canned lion hunts.

But if there's nothing wrong with it, and if it's even good for wild lions, then why not?

Based on your claims, if you were a true lion conservationist, you would book nothing but canned lion hunts, wouldn't you?

And you have to admit, based on Bwanamich's post above, canned lions are way better groomed and make much better trophies than wild lions:



That one looks like a cross between Ted Koppel and Peter Jennings.