Saw a funky special on the tube just the other night about Elephant's going extinct because of the Ivory demand in China. Don't want to get into that mess of a thread.

However.......I was just wondering, IF in fact, Ivory is in such demand in the Orient. Why are there not more Chinese guys hunting legal sporting Ivory? Culture? No Guns? What?

I kind of do not even wish to open this can of worms........but was just wondering what the AR community collective mind on this was. Maybe I am just ignorant of what IS already going on.

There have been reports of "hunters" from Asia coming over to simply pose in the picture of an already shot Rhino just to be able to legally export the horn (see below). I would bet this happens with Elephant too. Similarly, I know that Namibia and maybe others (all CITES countries?) actually require that the hunter provide copies of his/her passport pages to prove that the hunter named in the CITES permit was actually present when the hunt allegedly took place. They also want pictures of the hunter, the animal, AND the license/license number in the same frame. In spite of this, I would bet there is a lot of "proxy hunting" taking place for various species with the Asian guy back in camp. As a hunter, I find this use of an export permit repulsive....BUT as an economist I have to wonder if the resulting upward pressure on Rhino hunt prices in particular is not a substantial positive for the species in the generation of revenue for ideally expanding habitat. I hate to say this publicly lest anyone get any ideas before I have shot my lion and elephant, but (economically speaking) an efficient allocation of species (and habitat) will probably only come to exist if hunters and non-hunters are bidding on hunt permits. The wider the bidding pool, the higher the price and the closer the market price will be to the "natural" price. I realize that there are game management constraints to people paying to NOT shoot an animal given limited habitat, but imagine what elephant permits would go for if anti-groups were bidding against hunters....and also imagine how the available habitat and populations would probably increase. I am torn on this one but then start to wonder if I am really willing to put my money where my mouth is when I say, "I pay to hunt in order to benefit the species". If that is true...can I then fault someone for "paying not to hunt" if it helps the same species perhaps even more? Just thinking out loud.

http://blog.africageographic.c...oaching-ring-leader/

http://www.scmp.com/news/world...no-horn-south-africa

I think I saw the same show the other night as well. While elephants may be going extinct some places, other places they are doing quite well (Kruger & Zimbabwe come to mind). Discovery/BBC/Nat Geo/etc. make some very good documentaries, but often you need to look between the lines of what is being said. They will often say ambiguous things like "Elephants in XYZ location are increasingly under pressure from hunting. Without protection, elephants like those in XYZ will go extinct." The quickest interpretation of that statement is that "hunting" is causing elephants to go "extinct" when in reality all that is being said is the unique population in XYZ is being poached and there may soon be no more elephants in XYZ location.

As a general rule, almost every TV documentary I watch seems to have no problem using poaching and legal sport hunting synonymous and extinction is phrased in a way to try and make it seem like the entire continent is experiencing that problem described for a specific XYZ location (be it that it is or isn't).

Check the news for illegally seized ivory coming into China. They are seizing shipping crates full of the stuff. (I guess they forgot to pay off the right guys)

These Chinese are not hunters. They have no respect for wildlife whatsoever. Hell, they have no respect for human life! They are paying the locals to poach the Elephants, then shipping it back to China to be carved into trinkets, statues ... whatever.

Do not mistake these guys for hunters for one second. They are not hunters. They are simply funding the poaching. They are the worst kind of threat to African Elephants, Rhinos and Hippos. (Horn and Ivory).

This isn't your parents Commie China anymore. They are bigger capitalist than we are in the USA! (let that sink in for a moment). Their middle class has disposable income, and they love animal parts! Some for medicine, some for "art".

Their foothold in Africa is pretty well established, the poaching will continue as long as they are there.

Very, very sad and bleak picture for the future of the African Elephant and Rhino.

Just one year ago, I would have called someone paranoid or crazy if they said that we could expect Elephant to be uplisted to appendix I in the next 5 years. Now, I would have trouble doubting that it will happen.

By the way, I did not see the TV show. I am just speaking based on what I hear from guys on the ground in Africa.

quote:

Originally posted by bcolyer:
However.......I was just wondering, IF in fact, Ivory is in such demand in the Orient. Why are there not more Chinese guys hunting legal sporting Ivory? Culture? No Guns? What?

Too expensive to do it legally. $100 for a tusk or $20,000-$40,000 for two? pretty easy math (That is an example. I have no idea what they pay for a tusk, but it can't be much, it never has been much.)

They are not really a sporting culture. I have only seen one Chinese gentleman at SCI looking into a hunt.

No guns. I am sure that plays a part in it. When you can't hunt, the tradition is somewhat lost.

In the end, it is not the experience they are after. It's profit.

Wendell nailed it. On the culture side of it here's your answer - http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/china

Note what it says: "Civilians are not allowed to possess any firearms". And - "In China, the private sale and transfer of firearms is prohibited".

It says something about an exception for hunting with handguns by permit. What that means I'm sure I don't know.

The same type of regulation exists in Communist Cuba. Ecuador's like that too. Civilians are not allowed to possess long guns. Anyway, safari hunting is a function of a hunting and gun culture, ergo, no Chinese interest in African hunting.

China has a very efficient way of stripping the world of natural resources, ivory is no different. They'd rather pay pennies on dollars for some other poor sod to risk his life and sit back and collect the goods at the end of the supply chain.

I watched that also and posted that is was on PBS. They showed the ivory storage buildings in Tanzania with upwards of 30 tons showed some massive ivory 7 feet long and not out courve and next to it they showed a tusk looked like it came from a walrus, but did not. The Chinese head of there game dept said that it is not Chinese.
They mentioned that Chinese diplomats are purchasing ivory (illegal) and shipping it back as diplomatic mail.

Zim is entrenched with the Chinese 30K in Harare alone and all the work being done is done by Chinese labor and not locals for jobs.
There is also a diamond mine that the country gets absolutely nothing from. Guess who gets the money??? Bob and his Chinese friends.

Mike

Could you guys who saw it post the name of the show if you can? I have been searching PBS's sit but haven;t found the show. Would like to see if it's online.

Thanks

This may help, Baxter:

http://www.pbs.org/programs/battle-elephants/

Very good, Battle for the Elephants, thank you. This is the companion piece to the article in NG a few months ago.

quote:

Originally posted by bcolyer:
S. Why are there not more Chinese guys hunting legal sporting Ivory?

Its easier and cheaper to employ locals;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0yxeQYca-U

I did a pick up and run about town with 3 Chinese hunters and their translator who returned from Botswana last year after their elephant hunt.

I saw some pictures of them posing with their almost 50 lbs a side elephants. If they shot the elephants I cannot say. According to the one hunter he lost his elephant due to bad shot placement a day before returning.

They shot a few animals in SA before the elephant hunt. This much I know is true because they hunted with a friend of mine.