I received the following this morning from PHASA:



PHASA PRESIDENT CALLS FOR A REVIEW OF LION HUNTING



Pretoria, 24 July 2015 – Hermann Meyeridricks, president of the Professional Hunters’ Association of South Africa (PHASA), is asking the hunting association to reconsider its position on lion hunting.



In a letter emailed to PHASA members today, Meyeridricks says that the campaign against trophy hunting has intensified around the canned or captive-bred lion hunting issue since its current policy on lion hunting was adopted at its AGM in November 2013.



“We took the view that our position was a stepping-stone to clean up the captive-bred lion hunting industry and made it clear that it was certainly not our final word on the hunting of lions,” he says.



“From my dealings with the media and the community, it has become clear to me that those against the hunting of lions bred in captivity are no longer just a small if vociferous group of animal-rights activists. Broader society is no longer neutral on this question and the tide of public opinion is turning strongly against this form of hunting, however it is termed. Even within our own ranks, as well as in the hunting fraternity as a whole, respected voices are speaking out publicly against it.”



Meyeridricks says that with some airlines and shipping lines refusing to transport hunting trophies, PHASA has to face the fact that the lion issue is putting at risk not only the reputation of professional hunting in South Africa but its very survival.



“PHASA’s current policy on the issue is, broadly speaking, that it recognises the legality of and demand for captive-bred lion hunting, and is working with the predator breeders and government to improve its standards and conditions to a generally acceptable level. We have made little demonstrable progress on this front,” he says.



“Against this background, I have come to believe that, as it stands, our position on lion hunting is no longer tenable. The matter will be on the agenda again for our next annual general meeting and I appeal to you to give it your serious consideration, so that together we can deliver a policy that is defensible in the court of public opinion,” he says in the letter.



For further information contact Hermann Meyeridricks, PHASA president, on 083 303 0498.

Also, there is an anti-hunting group in SA that has produced a "documentary" regarding this practice that was shown at a film festival in Durban, RSA this week, as with most "documentaries" the only images and video shown are those that support the filmmakers anti hunting agenda. I imagine it will make it's way to the USA in the near future and might cause an uproar over here.
This is a contentious subject among hunters and one that will not be easily or quickly resolved. I won't give their website address but a quick search of blood and lion will get you pretty close if you want to see the clip so you can judge for yourself.

It's a damn shame that the misguided and misrepresented "court of public opinion" is now dictating what hunters and professional hunters do, not the law of the land or legalities of what we choose to do-whether you believe in canned hunting or not. The issue goes far beyond canned hunting, ladies and gentlemen, and let's hope that we as hunters and professional hunters have not let the nose of the camel now insert itself under the tent.

The court of public opinion drives the politicians who, in turn, dictate legislation. If we continue to ignore that fact we will always be behind the curve. Self-regulation is the ideal solution for hunting but if some of us continue to behave like arseholes you can be certain that public opinion will drive politicians to restrict our activities. It's the usual story - misdeeds of the few damaging freedoms of the many.

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
It's a damn shame that the misguided and misrepresented "court of public opinion" is now dictating what hunters and professional hunters do, not the law of the land or legalities of what we choose to do-whether you believe in canned hunting or not. The issue goes far beyond canned hunting, ladies and gentlemen, and let's hope that we as hunters and professional hunters have not let the nose of the camel now insert itself under the tent.

Milo Shangai........... spot on. That is the simple truth and yet it seems that many do not seem to get it. As individuals we can dislike it as much as we want, but it is the way it is and it affects our lives in many other ways, not just hunting.

Those who learn to play this game effectively win. We do not play the game effectively and over time this inability will be the death of us. There is also the need to recognize that what we do is simply not going to be viewed in a positive way by many and as time goes by and social engineering does its thing, the percentage of those who view all forms of hunting in a negative fashion, is going to increase.

To be blunt, we have already lost the game. Time is killing us off as we go along and as our numbers decrease and the numbers of those who are incensed by our pastime increase, the slope gets steeper.

At this point in time the "Boomers" are the last bastion of those who view hunters as the true conservationists. They are also the main fuel of the outfitting industry around the globe. As we get older and drop out of the picture due to lack of disposable funds during retirement, health issues or death.......... the negative changes impacting all forms of hunting are going to increase.

The most contentious forms of 'hunting', such as the pen raised lion release and shoot program, are the ones that will draw the most negative attention and do the most damage initially. You can pound your fist on the table and say "dammit, it is perfectly legal and that should be all that matters" all you want, but it is not going to change the direction this is heading.

Many knew this was coming. It was just a matter of time. Some things are simply not and never will be defendable in the "court of public opinion." The sad part is that instead of nixing it in the butt when it first started, the pen raised lion industry became quite large and has turned into a three ring circus that will be used as a hammer against all trophy hunting by those who know how to use it.

We gave it to them and now we are wondering why they are using it against all of us??

This is going to be interesting.

Finding that "middle-ground" on this issue and getting those who are polarized to occupy that ground will be the challenge.

Hell, getting the polarized to agree on where the middle-ground is, will be near impossible.

I think PHASA is right to bring it up though. Head in the sand won't work.

Well said Milo and Skyline.

When I had brought it up several years ago I got torn apart by the die-hard(which is quite normal).

I phrased it as "This is the beginning of the end", and not only is it getting closer by the day, its also too late to do anything about it.

My only suggestion is make hay while the sun shines and try doing ourselves a favour by refraining from publicizing your feats, among others, on YouTube.

I really cant believe some think the anti's would not just be after something else if not this. This is what they pick because they see us fighting with each other as hunters. You dont see the guys for raised lion hunting going after stopping wild lion hunting or any form of hunting.

We give in there will be a next animal they want to save they will not say oh they gave in lets move on and let them alone now. It will make them feel like they final won something and make them try even harder.Next will be ele,wild lion or leopard. Then it will be from the same guys putting down raised lion hunting saying we must all stick together to stop them. At that point I will just laugh and say I told you so.More will come and saying this issue was the start of it is kidding yourself and not helping any hunter. I do believe anti hunters were around well before the first raised lion was hunted. The times we live in has just made them more willing to do what they think is right and as we get fewer we fight more just worrying about what makes each one of us happy instead of what is right as a group.We give them one inch they are going to take a mile and run with it.

quote:

Originally posted by thirdbite:

quote:

Those who learn to play this game effectively win. We do not play the game effectively and over time this inability will be the death of us. There is also the need to recognize that what we do is simply not going to be viewed in a positive way by many and as time goes by and social engineering does its thing, the percentage of those who view all forms of hunting in a negative fashion, is going to increase.

To be blunt, we have already lost the game. Time is killing us off as we go along and as our numbers decrease and the numbers of those who are incensed by our pastime increase, the slope gets steeper.

bcap, I think you are living in the past and don't understand the forces at work. These are societal and cultural changes that are occurring. It isn't a matter of giving an inch and them running with it. We are diminishing and "they" are the ones now defining approved and acceptable behavior and determining what is legal, not just in regards to hunting, but other cultural values as well.

I said as much in my post times have changed and there is fewer of us. The fact that some think giving in will work is a joke. we either fight as a group and basicly make them give up and move on or we give them that inch and let them steamroll over us. Take the blinders off and see it for what it is. It is hunting they hate period and the killing of all animals.

We stood our ground, and SAA has adjusted their policy on shipping trophies. We need to stand together against the antis. Not use the lion as a sacrificial lamb. How is hunting captive reared lions any different than hunting kudu or buffalo on game farms in SA? Do we close down all game farm hunting next? Stay the course.

Bob

quote:

Originally posted by venda axe:
We stood our ground, and SAA has adjusted their policy on shipping trophies. We need to stand together against the antis. Not use the lion as a sacrificial lamb. How is hunting captive reared lions any different than hunting kudu or buffalo on game farms in SA? Do we close down all game farm hunting next? Stay the course.

Bob

The difference between the two is immense.

The lions are pen raised until ready to be shot, then darted, translocated to a new area where they don't know the terrain, water points or escape routes etc and then shot within a few hours or at most, a few days afterwards and quite often whilst still under the influence of the tranquiliser. (Proof of such things can be seen on the Tam Safari Lion shooting videos amongst others)

The other animals you mention live/breed on the reserve and live a more or less natural life within the confines of a game fence.

quote:

How is hunting captive reared lions any different than hunting kudu or buffalo on game farms in SA?

I never realized Lions were bred/reared in the same manner as Kudu or Buffalo.

Damn, and there I was under the impression that they were pen-raised, cuddled, taken for walkies and fed mainly on chickens and steroids.

There has never been a time when we needed the NRA to jump into hunting issues with both feet more than the present. Sadly, neither SCI nor DSC is up to the task. Too much ground will be irretrievably lost before either would ever have a prayer of making a difference. Neither is equipped for this fight. Without the resources, muscle and moxie of the NRA in the hunting fight, we are going to continue lose ground with each passing day. I would dearly love to be wrong, but I truly fear I am not.

"The other animals you mention live/breed on the reserve and live a more or less natural life within the confines of a game fence."


Not always so , I've driven during the sleeping hours of hunters on safari in the east cape to the game traders lots. Drove shotgun in the semi's that had loads of Kudu Black Wildebeest and Gemsbok in the trailers to high fence game ranches. Watched the black guys work the back doors and animals getting all the hose off the horns as the animals were pushed off the trailers, ONLY to be shot within hours of the trucks driving away from the ranch a hour before light. I watched guys shoot the same animals that were moved just hours before the very next morning and were not told.

I could blanket statement that ALL animals on fenced ranches are shot this way. I've been there done it and was asked to go along.

At least I was told the truth when I went to africa to harvest my raised lion. I was shown the rules os S A and how the release was to be conducted under S A laws and regulations.


Contrary , if they stop the hunting of raised lions they won't stop the raising of them as personal property.
The market of meat and bones will continue, mark my word it will.
South Africa Government has decided that these sold bones keep poaching to a minimum keeping pressure off the wild population as these raised ones are easily available and makes he value of poached bones to a minimum.

Quoted from S A government report: From a news story May 1st 2015. The S A Government IS for this !

"The agency says 739 kilograms of lion bones were legally traded to Asia in 2012 as compared to just 55 kilograms the year before."

"The sale of lion products, especially lion bones, offers breeder a way of boosting their earnings. A breeder can get paid anywhere from US$5,000 to US$25,000 per lion shot, but can boost his earnings by selling a lion skeleton, worth between $1,000 and $2,000 to a Chinese dealer in Durban or Johannesburg."

"The Biodiversity Management Plan of S A views a legal trade in lion bones as an economically viable activity and hopes to “promote sustainable legal trade in lions and lion products” using a regulated permit system."

THE BOTTOM LINE HERE, take away the sale of these legal lion bones and your wild lions WILL suffer in the long run. You'll take the hunting away from hunters and you WILL not take away the demand for lion bones. It's not economically feasable to raise lions for just the bones. But it will continue for "tourist baiting" and then sold as skins after they become to old or of no value to the tourist taking pictures by private breeders.

And last but not least...A quote from the 140 page report from Oxford University’s Wildlife Conservation Research Unit (WildCru) July 16th 2015 , if you wish a link to the 140 page report please feel free to send me a PM
I quote in their conclusions of the report......

"Has Lion farming for the hunting industry really taken the pressure off wild Lions? It would currently appear so in South Africa"

http://www.traffic.org/home/20...lion-bone-trade.html

Follow link and then click in the second paragraph. ...
Bones of Contention: An assessment of the South African trade in African Lion bones and other body parts

The more I read it the better it gets to me anyway

Here is another quote on the recommendations

"Since it seems unlikely that the trade in Lion bones will be banned in South Africa in the near future, or that syndicates, traders and Southeast Asian consumers will cease consumptive practices involving Lions and Tigers, the pragmatic blanket recommendation is that measures currently in place to impede opportunities for illegal activities are strengthened across the entire supply chain from Lion breeding to skeleton exports."

Not to stop it at all.....get more control of it because lion bone consumption aint going away. And the only way you get lion bones os to kill lions, if they can't get them legally they will go back to killing/poaching the wild lions.

Artistry,

Note my comment "more or less"

Of course game auctions happen and in fact, they play an important part of game management in that it allows the gene pool to be very diverse and no doubt some dodgy operators do shoot them immediately after translocation but most do not and instead, they allow a sensible rewilding period.

As for your comment of "I could blanket statement that ALL animals on fenced ranches are shot this way"

Quite honestly, that's utter bollocks. - Sorry to be so frank but it really is a nonsensical statement. The VAST majority are not treated in that manner.

quote:

The lions are pen raised until ready to be shot, then darted, translocated to a new area where they don't know the terrain, water points or escape routes etc and then shot within a few hours or at most, a few days afterwards and quite often whilst still under the influence of the tranquiliser. (Proof of such things can be seen on the Tam Safari Lion shooting videos amongst others)

Steve, I think if you check South African regulations require that all lions be released a minimum of 6 months.

quote:

Originally posted by venda axe:

quote:

The lions are pen raised until ready to be shot, then darted, translocated to a new area where they don't know the terrain, water points or escape routes etc and then shot within a few hours or at most, a few days afterwards and quite often whilst still under the influence of the tranquiliser. (Proof of such things can be seen on the Tam Safari Lion shooting videos amongst others)

Steve, I think if you check South African regulations require that all lions be released a minimum of 6 months.

Mate, I think....... in fact, I'm bloody sure you'll find that isn't the case.

There was indeed a proposal of that some years but the lion breeders association threatened the sue both the Minister (Van Schalkwyk) and the Governmunt if they passed that law and Van Schalkwyk who apparently lacks the spine to stand upright, promptly withdrew the proposal....... or more accurately, he removed lions from the list of dangerous predators.......... how that for a fuc++ng joke!

You'll also find that for many years, PHASA had a moratorium of the shooting of canned lions and that in the last year or two, there was some VERY murky going ons at the convention and that moratorium was overturned much to the ire of the majority of members.

My statement is no more nonsensicle than yours about drugged lions. I have seen this done with plains game, and you with your Tamm reference. Then I can, like you surmise that "more or less they do it that way.

No problem with you being frank, I thought you were steve....

You cannot, will not, or convince any liberal minded protesting anti-hunter that ANY HUNTING can be justified. Your appeasement of this will be nothing but gas on an ember. Everything I read I can find is the S A government does not have this on it's agenda in the near future or is very concerned about it.

quote:

Originally posted by The Artistry of Wildlife:
My statement is no more nonsensicle than yours about drugged lions. I have seen this done with plains game, and you with your Tamm reference. Then I can, like you surmise that "more or less they do it that way.

No problem with you being frank, I thought you were steve....

Artistry

OK, Let's look at it logically.

In your words of "I could blanket statement that ALL animals on fenced ranches are shot this way"

What experience do you base that statement on? - For example, how many translocations have you been part of and how many animals were translocated and how many of those animals were shot immediately afterwards? - Oh and what makes you think those few translocations you've been part of can only be an infinitesimal percentage of the number of translocations that happen every year in SA, let alone the rest of Africa.

As for being frank or steve, I'll go back to being Steve rather than frank or steve for the sake of good grammar because we all know the difference between good and bad grammar can be well described in the expressions of helping your Uncle Jack off a horse and helping your uncle jack off a horse.

As for the SA Governmunt: I don't know what's being reported elsewhere in the world but Sky News International only yesterday reported that the SA Governmunt ARE actively reviewing the canned lion issue.

Steve your going the wrong way..
I said I could , but unlike you and the lions I don't assume that they are. You seem stuck on this darted drugged staggering around thing every time a post like this rears it's ugly head. That's okay but I'm curiouswhen you state your views, "More or Less". Which is it?

I know you despise raised lion hunting so I'm not trying to change your mind. You won't change mine

Guess it's all in the news your watch...

New Government Plan Promotes Canned lion hunting
http://conservationaction.co.z...n-hunting-and-trade/

All that stuff I researched about the lions and you ask about the plains game..Gotta scratch my head on that one....

I thought the more or less comment was quite understandable & I apologise if it wasn't....... what I mean is the vast majority of translocated animals are given a sensible (re)wilding period but there are a few (on a pro rata basis) that are not. Also that whilst they can't go on a great migration, they do learn the areas pretty quickly and over a short period of time, learn the escape routes, watering points and general terrain etc whereas the lions simply cannot be given anything like a similar wilding period simply because of financial restrictions of keeping a hungry lion on an area for any significant period so they have no idea which way is up, let alone anything else when they're shot.......... and as I'm sure you know, I've explained that on several occasions.

Let's not forget how long this canned shooting shite has been going on for. It's as wrong now as it is then and I applaud good old Teddy for seeing it the same way as I do.

No problem, "You just keep on keeping on"
Good to talk to you.
You'll stay pro active against and I will stay pro active for the rights of all legal hunting or harvesting.

Haven't heard of or seen a lion tied to a tree in any of my travels to Africa.

Did you edit your "More or Less" statement? I don't see it anymore. HHHMM. If so that tells me volumes. It was in the sentence as MORE OR LESS meaning they all have drugged up lions, nothing about wilding.

quote:

Originally posted by The Artistry of Wildlife:
No problem, "You just keep on keeping on"
Good to talk to you.
You'll stay pro active against and I will stay pro active for the rights of all legal hunting or harvesting.

Haven't heard of or seen a lion tied to a tree in any of my travels to Africa.

Did you edit your "More or Less" statement? I don't see it anymore. HHHMM. If so that tells me volumes. It was in the sentence as MORE OR LESS meaning they all have drugged up lions, nothing about wilding.

No. I haven't edited or deleted it and I still see the comment but I'll go back and edit it so it's in bold so you can find it more easily.

How about you answering my questions? - The reason I consider it so important is that not only is your comment about plains game animals being routinely translocated and immediately shot is not only wrong but also gives the antis yet more ammo to use against us.

quote:

Originally posted by Milo Shanghai:
The court of public opinion drives the politicians who, in turn, dictate legislation. If we continue to ignore that fact we will always be behind the curve. Self-regulation is the ideal solution for hunting but if some of us continue to behave like arseholes you can be certain that public opinion will drive politicians to restrict our activities. It's the usual story - misdeeds of the few damaging freedoms of the many.

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
It's a damn shame that the misguided and misrepresented "court of public opinion" is now dictating what hunters and professional hunters do, not the law of the land or legalities of what we choose to do-whether you believe in canned hunting or not. The issue goes far beyond canned hunting, ladies and gentlemen, and let's hope that we as hunters and professional hunters have not let the nose of the camel now insert itself under the tent.

PC at it again!

PC will is ruining practically everything we hold of value!

quote:

Meyeridricks says that with some airlines and shipping lines refusing to transport hunting trophies, PHASA has to face the fact that the lion issue is putting at risk not only the reputation of professional hunting in South Africa but its very survival.

“PHASA’s current policy on the issue is, broadly speaking, that it recognises the legality of and demand for captive-bred lion hunting, and is working with the predator breeders and government to improve its standards and conditions to a generally acceptable level. We have made little demonstrable progress on this front,” he says.

I think this comment says a lot. PHASA has been unable to rein in shady operators, for a multitude of reasons I suspect, and realizes the harm that this is causing is untenable. I would think they are more in tune with the overall situation than many of the armchair pundits here.

maybe phasa cant do anything because they have no real power. It is just a group who does what they think is right but not all outfitters belong to them or need to. I think you may want to pull up your chair so you can be the armchair pundit for your side of the battle.

I just wonder what will cause more harm a raised lion in SA or one of those way better zim ph's who kills some park lion for the money.

PC is a tool of the devil(and politicians). I for one am not throwing in the towel, nor do I believe "that all is lost". In my opinion, if you do, you might as well give up hunting today and take up knitting.

We keep forgetting that those who are trying to stop this are in it to stop ALL HUNTING!!

Again, common sense is thrown out of the window.

I've seen it argued here on AR and numerous other places that the solution to the poaching of rhino is to legalize the trade in rhino horn and bring it out into the open. The logic it seems is that if the trade were legal, then land owners will now have an incentive to raise rhino's for the income that will be realized from the sale of the horn. This in turn would take pressure off of wild rhino's and reduce if not end the poaching.

So it would seem that in addition to Asia's insatiable desire and ability to pay for rhino horn, they also want lion bones. And according to the report that Artistry posted above, RSA lion's are supplying the demand for those bones. The big difference between raising rhino for their horns and lions for their bones, the lion obviously has to be killed. Furthermore the average price for a lion skeleton is about $1500. While I don't have the numbers of what it costs to raise a lion from cub to adult, it would seem intuitive that it's at least $1500 if not more. Thus as the report says the sale of the bones is simply a supplement to the income realized from the hunting of captive bred lions.

But, if RSA lion hunting is outlawed then that supply of lion bones to the Asian market goes away. If the demand for those bones remains, would that only then raise the likelihood of increased poaching of wild lions? If so, then in fact the RSA captive bred lions, and the hunting thereof to make it profitable, are contributing to the conservation of wild lions.

7MMNUT
The problem with your statement is...it actually make sense what you said... and nothing that is common-sense is acceptable to these people. RSA lions is supplying that market and they will simply turn to the wild ones like they did to rhinos if they stop the captive breeding of lions.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
We keep forgetting that those who are trying to stop this are in it to stop ALL HUNTING!!

Again, common sense is thrown out of the window.

Indeed and by giving them the right kind of ammunition makes it easier for them to win the hearts and minds of the naive, gullible public.

Walt Disney sure made a good job by producing "Lion King".