On another little used Africa forum there has been a statement that you don't need to bother with the 4457 form. It's been my experience that without the 4457 you will struggle and could have really big problems returning from over seas with guns. I have seen the debates in line between US Customs and a returning hunter a number of times.

I have never returned without the 4457 myself so I'm not perfectly clear on what is needed to get your guns through if you don't have one. I assume a sales reciept might also work, although that's a pretty easy thing to fabricate yourself! I do know if you have a tight connecting flight you will very likely miss that flight without the 4457 to "zip" you through re-entry to the USA.

Who has come back without one and what was required to get your guns through. Did they take them from you and require proof before releasing them? Did they have to ship them to you? What exactly happens when you arrive without one? I Assume this is the best place to find this out with the amount of Hunters visiting the site that also go to Africa. However Most of "US" know the situation and would not think of leaving without one properly filled out.

Hey, if you are going to misquote me, you should give the reference

I'd like to add to JJ's questions. My 4457 lists a rifle which I no longer own. Will this create a problem for me when it is listed, yet when I return I won't have it?

JJ: I've always used one since about '97. I've never had a problem. I was flying through Miami one year, and all guns that were made outside the USA that the guys didn't have 4457's or purchase receipts were confiscated.

You could get away without one until about 2002. Then they really cracked down on it.

Before 2001, I never had anyone ask for it.

A receipt should work, but it sure makes it a lot easier if you have the 4457. Leaves no question as to the validity of the form.

Additional guns on the form shouldn't matter. As long as the gun you have with you is on the form.

It is true, technically, the 4457 is not required, but it is so simple to get one and can aleviate so many problems, why in hell would a guy even consider not having one? SBT, don't worry about not having that gun. You can have as many guns on one 4457 as will fit, as many 4457's as needed. They do not expire, are good forever. The only numbers that matter are those that relate to items--guns, scopes, etc.--that you have there with you. Anything listed that you don't have is immaterial. The form 4457 is not FOR guns, it simply includes guns. One should have anything with a serial number on a 4457. It shows that you owned the item (well, at least possessed it) before you left the country. It asasures that you can bring it back. It also serves the equivalent as a "license" of gun ownership in lots of countries. Just get all your firearms you might ever travel with, along with anyything else with a serial number, i.e. scopes, spotting scopes, cameras, etc. on a form 4457. They are hand written and generally you can get about 6 to 8 items on one. Then make lots of copies of them, stash them all through your bags, like you should do with passport copies and itinerary copies. Keep the originals with your passport. They should be in the same catagory as your passport--never leave home without it! Obviously, there is no need to take a particular 4457 on a trip if it has nothing listed on it that you are taking--just take the ones that list a gun, scope, etc. that you are taking on that trip. It's a no brainer, just do it!

SBT,

The answer to your question is, "Who knows?"

Technically it shouldn't be a problem, BUT you could run into some Customs Agent who thinks that you exported every rifle on your Form 4457 and now you are returning without all of your rifles. A clear violation of ITAR. A federal crime. You are now a terrorist in the eyes of the federal government.

I would error on the side of caution and have a Form 4457 that contains only the specific firearm(s) you are taking on the trip.

Regards,

Terry

In 1995 prior to leaving on safari I was working 6 days a week up to 16 hours per day. I did not have a form 4457 but knew it would be good idea to get one. I phone my local customs office and got the old bureaucratic shuffle. They basically said I had to drive an hour to go to an office that did that sort of thing. Of course that office was closed on Sundays. So I got a copy of the latest customs handbook and it clearly said that firearms could be brought back into the country if you had the receipts.

Coming back through customs I presented the receipts and the agent said, "what are these for?". I explained it to him and he checked my guns having no clue were to look for a serial number and practically illiterate in reading the sales receipts. After that exercise was over he told me if I EVER did this again he would confiscate my guns. I chuckled and smiled at him. Surprisingly he didn't say anything.

FWIW, I do a separate 4457 for each gun. That way I can bring only the ones for the guns I have with me, and avoid any confusion.

When returning home I put the original 4457's in the gun case (extra copies carried with me). That way if it gets delayed a day or two, the forms are with the guns when Customs cuts the locks off the case. Also a good idea to keep extra locks (with same keys) inside the case with a note to Customs & TSA that they can use them to relock the case if the original locks had to be cut off.

Recently I heard a rumor that RSA wants the 4457 to be issued within the previous year. Any info on that?

Last fall I hunted in the UK with a hunting partner and I told him before leaving the states to get the 4457 completed and he said he never did before. When we returned he was ask for it and said he didn't have one, but lucky for him the Brits did not take his British permit showing he had brought the guns into the UK and they accepted that but not without some hassel. I have 5 guns on my current 4457.

When we came back through Atlanta last year the hunter in front of us in line got to unload his guncase and the "clerk" read the numbers and compared everything against his 4457.

About the time it was our turn, a coworker started talking to our customs gal, and obviously distracted, she just waved us through before I could even get the case open.

I guess enforcing federal customs law wasn't her top priority.

Coming back through Atlanta from Namibia last June, I handed the 4457 to the agent, and he looked it over, and said "Go ahead through."

He said that if I went to the trouble to get it done, it was good enough for him.

It saved me the trouble of removing the locks and replacing them.


Of course, I wouldn't count on that happening again...


Rick.

I pretty much have everything on the 4457's that I think I might bring since I must travel about 3 hours to get to a custom's location.

The forms are just proof of ownership, not that the items have left the country. If you want to play it safe, any substantial foreign made item that you take out should be on the form and your guns.

I used the form 4457 as proof of ownership in RSA.....and that saved me a real hassle.

Further I'm told the law now is changed and it's up to the customs dept to prove you bought the item overseas before you are charged duty. It used to be that you needed proof that you had it with you when you left the states.....now they must prove you bought it overseas. This was told to me by a customs agent in a local airport.

Personally anything over $250 you take with you should be included on the form and it makes good sense overseas to be able to show "proof of ownership".....it costs nothing except the time to get one. For me it's a 5 hour drive to the nearest custom's agent so I work it in with a shopping and fun day.

If I recall, the regulations state that customs must be satisfied that the item originated in the US. That's easiest to do with the 4457 and it doesn't matter how many are on it. Great idea to have a copy in the gun case.

Used to be I'd come into Dulles and not even declare anything, just go on through. Going through Atlanta Customs always wanted to check and one (the only) advantage of DC requirements to license firearms is that Customs readily accepted my DC rifle license and then issued me a 4457 on the spot. I finally went out to Dulles Customs shop and 4457'ed all my rifles (can't have pistols in DC). Used that form three weeks ago when I brought my shotguns back from having new barrels made in the UK. No problem.
Regards, Tim

Add me to the list of those who keep separate 4457's for each firearm. I have them laminated and when I sell a firearm, I shred the doc. Am I overly cautious? Perhaps, but then many years as a Classified Documents NCO has given me a great respect for the Power of the Paper Trail.

So is this required for a trip to Canada? Whats the drill for getting this done?

I don't know if travel to Canada requires one, but would assume with all of the terrorist stuff going on it wouldn't be a bad idea. Also, if you did run into a customs agent that was having a bad day, it would keep it from ruining yours.



Basically, the form is a slip of paper that apparently you must obtain at a customs port custom port link



You must bring the items that you want on the form with you and put down a descriptions of them and their serial numbers on the form. The customs agent then looks over the items and serial numbers signs the form and you are done. In pre 9/11 days one would take the guns into the customs office--now they are not allowed.



There really isn't much to it but it can be time consuming if you have multiple things needing the registration.

It's so easy to do there really isn't an excuse not to use the 4457 forms. There is usually an off-site Customs office near most major airports. A mid-day visit should get you in an out very quickly.

Just a note here: Call them ahead of time & tell them you are coming in with weapons. I had a young woman agent get strangly nervious(Pre-9/11). Then she got a pissy when she couldn't figure out fot to inspect my Ruger SA .44.

I totally agree with calling in advance. Some of the offices have funny hours and are closed for lunch.

It is required for Canada and if driving you can take care of it at the border with U S Customs. I got my first 4457 in 1976 and have been using it ever since. I got a new one a couple of weeks ago and included all the guns I thought I would ever take out of the country. A couple of years ago the customs officer said I should have the form laminated as it was getting pretty ragged from years of being folded over and over.

Here is a link to the customs offices that you can call ahead and make arrangements.

http://www.customs.gov/xp/cgov/toolbox/ports/



Kathi

kathi@wldtravel.com

The form is never "required", but often extremely handy. Anything you take with a serial number should be listed. Unfortunately, you cannot list anything that doesn't have a serial number.

I don't know if it is correct customs protocol, but I was allowed to list items without serial numbers. I just gave descriptions of them.

I'm not sure what the law says, but several years ago I did a 4457 for some pistol mags, separate from the gun, and there were no serial numbers. The form said something like "Six high capacity (13 shot) magazines for a Browning Hi Power 9mm pistol. Magzaines are marked 'Italy cal 9mm NATO/Luger'" The Customs Officer had no problem approving the form.

If you are wondering why I listed the mags separate from the gun, now I'm wondering too. But it did work OK.

Well, I'm open to learning. One thing I don't need to learn is that gov't agents often don't know the real rules--I was told by the agent that I couldn't put anything on the form without a serial number. Probably the next agent would have had a different answer. So, I guess I'll stand corrected, but defend myself by blaming the agent for misleading me! It sure makes me feel good about the people that I, as a tax payer, am paying to work!

I have a stack of form 4457s with guns on them..I find two or three with the guns I am taking and stick them in my gun case and a copy of them in my wallet..

I have yet to be asked for one but I have pointed them out to the customs agents abroad on several ocassions...USA customs inspectors won't ask unless something makes them suspecious and they KNOW if something is new, no matter what you do to it...

All a form 4457 does is show ownership of the firearm prior to your leaving the USA, it has no other legal position, its good for a lifetime..A bill of sale is every bit as valid if it contains the proper information such as make, model, serial number, and caliber...

In Africa a form 4457 looks impressive to the powers that be even though they cannot read it in many cases......

The 4457 is for anything that you own such as scopes, cameras, watches, and tech. equipment...I only use them for my rifles..

Arts,



Man, I can agree with that.



Not sure how relevent it is, but in at least two cases of getting stuff listed without SNs over the years, I have had different agents do the inspections and neither balked at OKing the items. In fact, one added to my description for my wife's diamond ring for a trip to Mexico. That was years ago, and we're still using the same form every fall when we drive down to our timeshares there.



BUT...that said, we have never been asked to show a 4457 form for anything on our return trips from Mexico. They normally just quiz us at the Nogales entry point. Usual question is "Did you buy anything?" and I tell them "Yes, some pottery, trinkets, etc. and a bottle of tequila." Normally we never have anything close to our personal exemptions value-wise. On rare occasions they have asked us to pull into the little inspection area and checked the vehicle for wayward fruit and/or plants.



In contrast, my son and I went on a spring bear hunt to BC in May 2003. We pulled into the US Customs check point on the return and told the guy we had the bears to declare. He then said, "And you have firearms, too?" After my "Yes," he said, "Pull over there, and bring the guns inside." Once inside, the guy at the counter asked to see the 4457s and checked them against the guns. We then filled out the USF&WS declaration and another dude walked outside and peeked into the ice chest where we had the hides and skulls.



Now, I'm not positive if the 4457 was "required" for the return from Canada, but it sure made it a lot easier and quicker. So I would suggest anyone visiting Canada should have a 4457, too. -TONY

I totally agree. I never leave home without them. I keep them with my passport, and do just like Mr. Atkinson--take the forms with me that represent items I am taking on that particular trip. I, too, have never had to show a 4457, but on at least one occasion I remember, as I was getting the form out to show the agent, he said, "never mind. I can see that you have things in order". Also, in Spain, even though the gun permit was arranged prior to my arrival, it appeared to me that the presence of the form really sped things up in Madrid. Perhaps it was unnecessary, but it sure appeared to have a positive effect.

I just got back from getting mine. I live near a Customs Office (Brunswick, Ga). I went in, told them what I wanted to put on the form, then went back out and brought in my rifle (in the case), cameras, binoculars, etc, filled out the form and was out the door in less than ten minutes. The people there were very helpful, and had some nice brochures with travel tips etc.

Well, I haven't been as lucky as you and Ray. As I said, they asked for the forms on return from Canada, and a month later the customs agent in Atlanta did likewise on my return from RSA. Maybe I just look suspicious. -TONY

As far back as 1972 I was told on returning from B. C. through Sweetgrass, Montana that I was susposed to have "signed them out" when we left the U. S. form Canada. The let us go as all the rifles we Model 70 Pre-64's and he would "take our word for it" that we took them out. We had crossed there every year since 1964 and never had a question asked. The guy just told us, "well the law was enforced this time" and suggested we comply in the future.
We have always used them since then and still have some from the early '70's.

I got mine about 3 weeks ago. I walked in and told them what I had and the very nice lady at the desk told me to bring them in, which we did. She checked all the numbers on the guns, cameras, ect. and gave us some brochures. My understanding is they HAVE to SEE the items b4 they can sign and stamp. She was very helpful and friendly although the 2 other agents there were very quiet . Luckily, I live only about an hour from the customs office. I cant imagine having to drive 5 hours....

The times I have gone to the Customs office for 4457's, I had the guns and stuff with me but they did not actually compare the numbers. Perhaps if I didn't bring them along then Customs would have insisted on a visual check.

The last time I did this was at the International terminal at O'Hare, and I was a little worried about bringing the guns inside, even though the office is not in the secured area. I stopped by and asked first, they just said to keep them cased on the way in/out, there would be no problem. True.

I have been checked sometimes coming back through Atlanta, and sometimes just waived through. If you do get checked, you will be very thankful you have their form complete.

I have multiple firearms on each form, and usually just have a few of the listed guns. No problems, ever. I have the forms stapled into my passport, and I travel internationally almost every week. (Mostly without guns). On occassion an officer notices I have the forms in my passport, and I just announce that I am not traveling with those items on this trip. I have never had any dditional questions after making that statement.
Rest easy. If you have the guns listed on a form 4457, and cooperate with Customs, you won't have any problems.

Bill

AfricanHunterFortner,

No doubt the terrorist stuff since 9/11 has certainly had some impact. I had made at least 6 hunting trips into Canada prior to 2000 or so and was never asked for a 4457 before last year's trip. In fact, I never even was asked by US customs if I was bringing firearms in, though the Canada folks always asked. About the only thing US Customs ever asked was whether I was a US citizen and if I had any of the prohibited plants, fruits, etc.

So if I hadn't already obtained the 4457s for the upcoming trip a month later to Africa, I probably wouldn't have had them at all.

And never did they ask for proof of citizenship, as they also did on the last trip. As an after thought, I had also thrown in my passport, which had also been obtained for Africa and had my son bring along his birth certficate. That made it go smoothly. -TONY

I just came back from Zim. through Atlanta today and had a rather "Barney Fife" type Customs agent, yelling at everyone in line. I handed him my 4457 and a receipt and he didn't even make me open the gun case to check the numbers!!!! I couldn't believe it, I've never gotten that lucky before. Maybe this killing with kindness that Mark Jackson uses is rubbing off on me (sorry Mark I think I actually learned from my dad first) .

By the way, I checked my guns from the States straight through Jo'burg to Harare and did the same coming home (on advice from the airlines each direction) and got away with it. I had gathered the RSA ownership proof paperwork just in case but I checked each time and they had no problem with me not getting a permit while "passing through". Maybe I misunderstood the rules (they made us get a permit in Capetown last year while passing through and I understood the new rules were more strick this year). I guess every day is different.

Kyler