Which bullet would you use on charging buf, will the premium bullets have enouth penetration

I use GS Solids and I will only use solids on a charge if the decision is mine, otherwise I'll use whats available....

Thats why I just use solids and let it go at that, because you will always have the wrong bullet in the gun when you use both...

With the advent of the GS flat nose and Northforks new cup point I doubt that I will ever use another soft, we'll see, school is still out on that issue with me, but the new solids have got all my attention as we speak.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

The one in your rifle's chamber

The accepted practice is to use a solid to the brain or spine to disrupt the CNS of a charging animal. Softs may not penetrate reliably.

Disruption to the cardiovascular system will be effective but not in the time it will take to trample you. You must switch off the lights.

You must therefore hunt and shoot the buffalo with the same bullets with which you intend to stop him should the F***-up Fairy decide to visit. You won't have the luxury of selecting a new bullet if your buff decides to make a fight of it.

Ergo, I think you should hunt buffalo with Solids. From start to finish.

Cheers

pete

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I want to die in my sleep like my Grandfather, not screaming and yelling like the passengers on the bus he was driving...

Solids!
Bjorn

What happened to the premium soft for the first shot, backed up by all solids in the magazine?

Leo,
All the smart guys got here first!

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Leo,

A buffalo will not charge unless wounded and followed up. Since he is wounded I suppose your premium bullet has left the barrel.

Bjorn

BK:

Buff sometimes charge without being wounded.

P-Duck:

Yours is the best answer. A soft at 6 feet will brain a buff just as well as a solid.

Will

P.S. In case you are wondering where to shoot to brain a buff:

http://www.rifleshooter.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=000031

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 04-13-2002).]

Have both on hand and use what your PH says to use!

Happy Hunting
Jon

Will,

How many times have you experinced that? Please tell us!

Bjorn

Bjorn,

I am not Will, but I have seen nonwounded buffalo charge. On a few occasions when we had shot a bull (that went down I might add) his friends charged us. Their reason seemed to be to protect their fallen comrade. While one of the unwounded buffalo nudged and prodded the fallen one the others charged us to drive us off. If have seen the same behavior exhibited toward lions.

I have seen one bull goaded into a charge so that a friend could demostrate just how to stop a charge by breaking a shoulder; therfore, causing the animal to turn itself to maintain it's balance. He then finished it with the second (right hand barrel). Personally, I found this to be an attempt to prove that pride is indeed a mortal sin!

Todd E

[This message has been edited by Todd E (edited 04-13-2002).]

Bjorn:

I have never experienced a buff charge, provoked or unprovoked, only unprovoked ele, but have brained a few buff. Does this now make you happy?!!!!!

I know Andy Hunter just this year (I hunted with him in Oct.) had to stop an unprovoked charge. He was also tossed in '90 or '91 right after I went back home. I forget. I think it was last year that Ron van Heerdon had a unprovoked charge, and I think it was 1997 or 98 he had an unprovoked charge. He has had several, according to Ron and his son Barry, who I hunted with several times. Now would he lie to me?!!!!

Should I go on?

I claim no credit for stopping a buff, but just because I haven't doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

So there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You want to wrestle?

Have a good one,

Will

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 04-13-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 04-13-2002).]

Will,
Rons charge last year was from a wounded Buffalo my client hit, and he stopped the charge with a 470 solid to the head on his 2nd shot to the eye...That was the only charge he had last year I'm pretty sure. Ron is a dyed in the wool solid user and double user for what its worth, and his double sure paid off in that instance.

I have seen a lot of softs, yes premiums, fail on head shots..I have a few of them on my desk. NEVER USE A SOFT ON A BUFFALO HEAD SHOT, that is very unwise..Sure it might work sometimes but I promise you it will not work every time, in which case your ticket may get punched.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Todd E:
[B]Bjorn,

I am not Will, but I have seen nonwounded buffalo charge. On a few occasions when we had shot a bull (that went down I might add) his friends charged us. Their reason seemed to be to protect their fallen comrade. While one of the unwounded buffalo nudged and prodded the fallen one the others charged us to drive us off. If have seen the same behavior exhibited toward lions.

Todd,

I would say those buffalos were indeed provoked when one of their fellows was shot.

Will,

Since you are the real expert on charges from unprovoked buffalos you of course know most animals will charge when surprised or cornered. The animal in question feels threatend and charges. This is NOT an unprovoked charge.

Wrestling about what? If you feel your ego threatend I can do nothing about it.

Regards
Bjorn

Bjorn:

I'm not much of an expert in my own profession, much less buffalo hunting! I do wish I had hunted buff all my life so I could claim that status. I'm just passing along my limited knowledge and experience.

There is always that chance when one is walking through the bush to stumble upon a buff that has decided to charge, call it provoked or unprovoked.

Don't you agree?

Will

Will,

I agree! No hard feelings?
Bjorn

I agree with Ray - GS FN solids must be the best bullet for a buffalo charge when used in a decent big bore caliber - in fact I think it is the best solid for use under all circumstances. Massive destruction in the woundchannel (close to a controlled expansion soft) and immense penetration is what you acheive when using these bullets.

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UH

Gentlemen,

A friend of mine who is a PH in Zimbabwe, who has been hunting buffalo for over 30 years, was only charged once.

And that was by an old, unwounded cow. In fact, it was in such a bad state of health, they left it for the hyenas to eat.

Thats why I always laugh when I see those videos of charging African buffalo. They make it look as if you are going to be charged by every second buff you come across.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

Bjorn,

I was only speaking from experience. I do not recall saying that those experiences were unprovoked. I agree with you 100% regarding my previous post. All those charges were most assuredly responses to our intrusion and from the buffalo's point of view murder of friends.

If however, you take the provocation arguement to it's logical conclusion all charges are provoked! The buffalo is not going to run off charging nonexistent people is he. Therefore, by your mere presence in his (the buffalo's) bush you are trespassing and he is dealing with trespassers as he sees fit. Perhaps if buffalo could write we would have signs saying (english translation): Trespasser will be stomped on sight!

I have seen many many unprovoked charges from American bison. I once had one chase my truck down a highway. I got his attention at a stop sign. I guess I provoked him as he must of considered that stretch of road HIS! Again this could all be argued as provoked for the aforementioned reasons.

Todd E

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Let us return to the original question "which bullet for charging buffalo?". I belive we all agree solids is the only answer to this question.

To stop a charging buffalo you must hit either the brain or the spine. If you do not he will reach you, he may have his heart shot to mince meat but he comes on on adrenalin only. This is the only time when you go for a brainshot on buffalo.

You can not shoot a buffalo in the brain from the side because the brain is protected by the boss. If you take a frontal shot at an unwounded buffalo you shot deep in the V under his throat. Never ever try a brain shot in this position. If you are on a higher level it is possible to take a brainshot from behind but I do not recommend it.

After the shot a buffalo turns runs away from you, either following the herd or going directly for thick bush. You must however keep an eye of his compadres.

Saeed has shot more buffalos than any of you on this forum, his friend Roy has hunted them for 30 years, I have also hunted buffalo during a very long time. The only one charged was Roy, see Saeeds post above.

Does not this tell you something? Mind you, a wounded Cape buffalo is lethal to man, make no mistake about that. But here we are talking about unwounded Cape Buffalo.

To provoke a charge from a WOUNDED buffalo is rather easy. When he is down close in downwind or approach him so he can see you. Then you have your charge. Funny to watch on video but really scary in reality. I laugh too when I see those videos, but I also feel a bit sad when some people reduce a magnificent animal to something to torment in front of a camera just to get something spectacular on tape. But it must be lots money in those videos...
Personally I would never take part in such nonsens.

As I said before, if you surprise or corner an animal it might charge you - but this is not an unprovoked charge. When I think about it I have actually never seen an unprovoked charge of an unwounded/sound animal.

As someone wrote, I think it was in African Hunter "A superior guide is one who uses his superior judgment to stay out of situations that require the use of his superior marksmanship"

Bjorn

Trophy Bonded SledgeHammer loaded by Federal. And Id use a 416 Rem Mag, or at least nothing smaller than a 375 H&H. Either way, Id use that Trophy BOnded SLedgeHammer.

Saeed,
I'm going to have to correct the situation of you having killed more Buffalo than anyone on this board, by the time I get back in October, even if I have to stay a couple of extra weeks and cull..So Please, my friend, stay home this year.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray my friend,

You know how much I love to hunt buffalo, so you can imagine how disappointed I am this year for not being able to hunt a few.

Our hunt in South Africa is only for plains game.

I am hoping to make up for it next year. I remember the year we spend about all our time hunting buffalo, when we shot 12 on one safari!

That is when we hunted Chete, which as you know is quite tough for some people. So Roy had a few more buffalos left over than usual, and I was very happy to help him finish his quota.

I wish you the best of luck on your trip.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

Back to subject:

My question is, with the monolythic softs like BarnesX and GS HVs - do we really need the solids?

I agree that nothing else than a very good solid has to be used for elephants, but aren't the mono-softs are capeable for all of the rest????

I'm starting to get my 416 Rigby set-up with the 330gr HVs - do I really need solids if I don't go for eles?

Franz

Daydreamer,

We are talking about stopping a CHARGING buffalo.
To hunt Cape Buffalo your choice of bullet is perfectly OK.

Bjorn

I should let this drop, but...

It is implied and stated in some of the above posts that a soft will not brain a buff. Well, that isn't really true.

If you hit the boss with a frontal shot with some softs, they may deflect (haven't done that) but you wouldn't have hit the brain anyway, the shot being too high in the first place.

Don't think you have to carry solids in the chamber, a soft will do pretty much anything required. Solids from a big bore (> .375) will whiz through buff from broadside shots, as someone stated above, and be less effective than softs.

Will

My dear friends:

I was hopping some one would come up with a final answer to Flip's question : "Which bullet ... ".

I think we have to re-address that question to the "one and only" authority on the subject: Mark Sullivan

B.Martins

B.Martins:

You are correct. I bow to the HIGHEST authority.

Will

Will,
I will give you an example..One of my clients, took a head shot at a Buff with his 470, not a charge but it was the only shot in the high grass that he had. The Buff, of course, was looking at us..The Woodleigh soft hit the mouth and was cut in half on the teeth of the lower jaw. Half went down is gullet, and half went out the jaw and 6" into his shoulder..Yes it did irrate the bull greatly..Solids stopped the insueing charge, a close one, but sweet thang prevailed....

Another instance occured when a 458 Lott,Ackley or ? with Swift A-Frame smaked a bull in the mouth and came apart in the neck on the spine. the bull went to the ground altogether to quick...at our approach he made a lunge and met a barrage of fire that settled his hash, but we were suspecious of this old boy and ready.

In both of these cases a solid would have made serious inroads to the health of these two bulls..

I have first hand knowledge of several incidents such as this with softs and it has determined my opinnion obviously..

I consider the soft a viable option for some for the first shot I suppose as it is such an acceptable practice, but the fact that no-one trusts a soft enough to fill their magazines always bothered me, I ask why?

Another reason I prefer solids, and GS these days, is because I never had the right bullet in the barrel when I needed it and was normally in a position that I could not change the bullets out, and frankly wouldn't have bothered in the first place. I think Finn Aagard made mention of this in one of his articles, as to why he used solids in his guns..

Not argueing with anyone, just stating my opinnion based on several incidents that have taken place with me or in my presence and like most folks, such incidents are what determine our opinnions, unless they are formed from study and litature based on others opinnions.

These days,with all the old Buff hunters gone, I prefer hands on opinnions for myself. In so many cases today the hunter has actually shot more Buffalo than the PH..At any rate that is the reason I choose solids for Buffalo.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I will leave this thread for now, it is becoming too silly.

No PH in a sound state will allow a client to try a brain shot on Cape Buffalo with a softnose. If you insist he will cut the hunt short and return to camp.

Eric Rundgren told me not to accept any nonsens from clients an advise I have always stuck to.

Bjorn

There's really no room to argue as to which is best for a brain shot and I'm still not 100% sure if the "soft backed by solids" is the best approach, though it has worked well for me, thus far.

That said, it is my thought that, were I to somehow find myself facing a charge with a soft in the chamber, I'll be glad it's an "X" bullet, as I seriously doubt it would fail on the brain shot. Sorry to annoy anyone.

Bjorn, hold on to your pants for a shade longer please, I have a question about those Barnes X bullets that are supposed to be so good on buffalo OK.

Now will the Barnes X bullet do the job on a charging buffalo, head shot lets assume?

Next question is, what are the best solids to use on this charging buffalo?

Gentlemen,

I have shot a few buffalo in the head, but none of them was actually in a charge.

They all dropped in their tracks, and the bullets went through the head and lodged in the neck.

All were shot with the Barnes 300 grain X bullet.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

Okay, let's fight. Okay, let's not.

My son and I have both brained buff with softs. Never had one fail. I would have to witness a soft nose bullet of any make out of a .470 coming apart on a buff's nose. Maybe the ones that did were going sideways. Maybe the witch doctor put a spell on them.

Buffalo are not make of reinforced concrete.

Just my experience, but I'm going to the garage to put on my rubber knee-high boots.

Cheers guys,

Will

P.S. I give up. I mean it this time!!

Will,

I have to agree with you. I have shot several buffalo in the head (and witnessed more) all shot with softs. The penetration was good.

Ray, is a big proponent of the solid. Personally I hate them. They create little tissue trauma and create little if any shock. To be effective a solid needs to break a major structural component of be delivered into the ALL TO SMALL brain or spine in a charge. Anyone that has been charged knows exactly what I am talking about. Things happen way too fast when 2000 pounds of PO bovine is bearing down on you. I have stopped charges with a head shot (soft point) from a 505 Gibbs even though I missed the brain. A second shot from another member of the group finished him (I think it was the PH, but to this day I am not sure).

After a buffalo charge the non-suicidal will be changing shorts! It is one cool dude that doesn't get a little rattled when the charge is coming on. Under those conditions it is plain ass hard to AIM!

Todd E

a really big one

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MED

The sole purpose of a rifle is to please its owner

105mm howizter, soft or solid your pick.....

GENTLEMEN: I SPOKE TO MARK SULLIVAN ON THIS VERY SUBJECT AT THE DALLAS SAFARI SHOW. HE SAID SOLIDS WITHOUT ANY HESITATION. WHEN I ASKED ABOUT A SOFT FOR THE FIRST SHOT, HE SAID SOLIDS ALL THE TIME. BUT, HE DID SAY HE USED A SOFT ON THE BUFFALO CHARGE WHERE HE HITS THE BUFF IN THE MOUTH ON THE FIRST SHOT ON "DEATH AT MY FEET". WHEN I ASKED WHY, HE SAID HE WAS OUT OF SOLIDS. NO MATTER WHAT ANYONE THINKS ABOUT HIM HE HAS DEFINITELY 'BEEN THERE AND DONE THAT' WITH THE FILM TO PROVE IT. SO I AGREE WITH SULLIVAN, ATKINSON, ET AL. SOLIDS ONLY ON THE FOLLOW UP. HOWEVER I THINK A DOUBLE RIFLE IS AN ADVANTAGE HERE FOR THE CLIENT, WITH A SOFT IN THE RIGHT BBL. AND A SOLID IN THE LEFT ON THE INITIAL ENCOUNTER. THEN SOLIDS ONLY ON THE FOLLOW UP.

Will and Todd,
I was just passing on my opinnion and it suits me for you to use softs, I sure wasn't intending to change your mind. I've gotten by pretty good so far with the solid so I'll stick with them. Hope you do as well.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com