quote:

Originally posted by csxcs:
Why the Ph:s want you to take a brainshot is that you can see direct if it its a killing shot. A body shot you cant see as easy if you hit it in the heart or lungs ?? Almost all elephant hunt dvd:s ive seen (and that is alot) the ph always seems to backup with a shot just after the client have taken a heart/lung shot, just to be on the safe side.

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
IMHO an ele deserves the brain shot

quote:

Originally posted by Vaughan Fulton:
Fellow members,

Regarding the choice between brain or heart/lung I beleive firstly that hunters should be prepared to take the shot offered. We all hunt enough to know that situations are not as we imagine them or preconcieve them to be/being. Murphy is also a hunter.

Personally though, I encourage hunters to take the heart/lung shot. A heart shot elephant will not go far past 20 paces, I have seen them fold within 10 or less. In addition the margin for error is greater and a lung shot elephant for the most part will die or if the shot has missed these two organs has a greater chance of being sick enough to catch up to and finish off. From a ph standpoint I do not backup on this shot unless the hunter requests this.

In the case of a brain shot, ph's should be prepared to back-up. Simply if the brain is missed the elephant does not always go down the ph will be in a position to process this and react with a heart/lung or brain shot thus reducing the chances of losing the animal.
With all due respect, even when one is familiar with your rifle and no matter how fast you can work the bolt or get your second barrel off, conditions have changed (eg. the elephant was not stunned enough to go down and is off at a pace) and the chances of losing the elephant are now greater.

Respectfully,

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quote:

Originally posted by retreever:
Also an elephants lungs will not collapse like a deer or bear or plains game...
...Mike

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Actually, in my experience hunting with two very experienced PH's, and also in speaking with a number of Zim PH's with significant ele experience, to a man, they prefer brain shots.

Mostly they prefer brain shots because they are more fun and challenging, but also because, for the most part, it is easy for them to determine whether a brain shot is successful or not, not neccesarily the case with heart/lung shots (though there is NO EXCUSE for missing that huge target.)

It has been said, "you hunt an elephant with your feet, you merely execute him with your rifle." This is true with regard to heart/lung shots, but not so much using a brain shot which, imo, throws in an entirely element of excitement to the hunt, and more satidfaction - or less in case of an imperfect brain shot.

BTW, I have never witnessed a heart/lung shot elephant screaming or spewing gore wildly. But you can see the tremendous fear in their eyes, which I think is knowledge of forthcoming death, and I find that unpleasant in the extreme. In addition, in my experience, almost every ele that has gone down from a heart/lung shot NEEDed a killing brain shot since most have still been alive, though down and imobile, when we reached them. Looking, at the close range of a couple of yards, into that baleful eye that knows death is iminent is even more unpleasant than seeing the panic and fear as the elephant flees.

JPK

quote:

I've always seen photos with the widest of grins on the hunter yet the truth on the sequence of events that led to the photo are rarely revealed Wink

quote:

Originally posted by kibokolambogo:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Actually, in my experience hunting with two very experienced PH's, and also in speaking with a number of Zim PH's with significant ele experience, to a man, they prefer brain shots.

Mostly they prefer brain shots because they are more fun and challenging, but also because, for the most part, it is easy for them to determine whether a brain shot is successful or not, not neccesarily the case with heart/lung shots (though there is NO EXCUSE for missing that huge target.)

It has been said, "you hunt an elephant with your feet, you merely execute him with your rifle." This is true with regard to heart/lung shots, but not so much using a brain shot which, imo, throws in an entirely element of excitement to the hunt, and more satidfaction - or less in case of an imperfect brain shot.

BTW, I have never witnessed a heart/lung shot elephant screaming or spewing gore wildly. But you can see the tremendous fear in their eyes, which I think is knowledge of forthcoming death, and I find that unpleasant in the extreme. In addition, in my experience, almost every ele that has gone down from a heart/lung shot NEEDed a killing brain shot since most have still been alive, though down and imobile, when we reached them. Looking, at the close range of a couple of yards, into that baleful eye that knows death is iminent is even more unpleasant than seeing the panic and fear as the elephant flees.

JPK

Why does no one in his right sense of mind ever take a brain shot on a Buffalo? (except when charging) Answer: So as not to damage the trophy! - by strict instruction almost all shots are directed at the chest cavity in order to inflict the maximum damage and hopefully drop him with the first shot (which is pretty rare); we all discuss with great fervor which bullet will do the best job but because a Buffalo is not an Elephant does not mean it has no premonition on what's to come when it spews blood from its lungs or feels that burning sensation (it must feel something after a Barnes X or Bear Claw has gone through it's chest).

For any animal large and small, when death is imminent it sure as hell knows it (especially from a gunshot wound) as aptly described in the preceding text: "that baleful eye that knows death is iminent is even more unpleasant than seeing the panic and fear".

The brain shot therefore is IMO something personal...ego maybe?

I wonder how the author of a botched brain shot on an elephant feels after he's had to put several body shots into it to stop and put it down?
I've always seen photos with the widest of grins on the hunter yet the truth on the sequence of events that led to the photo are rarely revealed

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:

quote:

Originally posted by retreever:
Also an elephants lungs will not collapse like a deer or bear or plains game...
...Mike

Ok ,I'll bite.

I had not heard this before.

Do elephants have the lung anchored to the pleura in some unique way to prevent collapse of the lung (pneumothorax) or air collecting between the two layers and compressing the lung (tension pneumothorax) or blood accumulating (hemothorax)?

Or, do you mean it is simply a volume issue?

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quote:

Originally posted by kibokolambogo:
For any animal large and small, when death is imminent it sure as hell knows it (especially from a gunshot wound) as aptly described in the preceding text: "that baleful eye that knows death is iminent is even more unpleasant than seeing the panic and fear".

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
---------The lungs are attached, from what I have read as an "evolutionary improvement" for the purpose of being able to generate the suction required to draw water with their trunks.----------
JPK

quote:

Originally posted by kibokolambogo:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Actually, in my experience hunting with two very experienced PH's, and also in speaking with a number of Zim PH's with significant ele experience, to a man, they prefer brain shots.

Mostly they prefer brain shots because they are more fun and challenging, but also because, for the most part, it is easy for them to determine whether a brain shot is successful or not, not neccesarily the case with heart/lung shots (though there is NO EXCUSE for missing that huge target.)

It has been said, "you hunt an elephant with your feet, you merely execute him with your rifle." This is true with regard to heart/lung shots, but not so much using a brain shot which, imo, throws in an entirely element of excitement to the hunt, and more satidfaction - or less in case of an imperfect brain shot.

BTW, I have never witnessed a heart/lung shot elephant screaming or spewing gore wildly. But you can see the tremendous fear in their eyes, which I think is knowledge of forthcoming death, and I find that unpleasant in the extreme. In addition, in my experience, almost every ele that has gone down from a heart/lung shot NEEDed a killing brain shot since most have still been alive, though down and imobile, when we reached them. Looking, at the close range of a couple of yards, into that baleful eye that knows death is iminent is even more unpleasant than seeing the panic and fear as the elephant flees.

JPK

Why does no one in his right sense of mind ever take a brain shot on a Buffalo? (except when charging) Answer: So as not to damage the trophy! - by strict instruction almost all shots are directed at the chest cavity in order to inflict the maximum damage and hopefully drop him with the first shot (which is pretty rare); we all discuss with great fervor which bullet will do the best job but because a Buffalo is not an Elephant does not mean it has no premonition on what's to come when it spews blood from its lungs or feels that burning sensation (it must feel something after a Barnes X or Bear Claw has gone through it's chest).

For any animal large and small, when death is imminent it sure as hell knows it (especially from a gunshot wound) as aptly described in the preceding text: "that baleful eye that knows death is iminent is even more unpleasant than seeing the panic and fear".

The brain shot therefore is IMO something personal...ego maybe?

I wonder how the author of a botched brain shot on an elephant feels after he's had to put several body shots into it to stop and put it down?
I've always seen photos with the widest of grins on the hunter yet the truth on the sequence of events that led to the photo are rarely revealed

Free 500grains

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by kibokolambogo:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Actually, in my experience hunting with two very experienced PH's, and also in speaking with a number of Zim PH's with significant ele experience, to a man, they prefer brain shots.

Mostly they prefer brain shots because they are more fun and challenging, but also because, for the most part, it is easy for them to determine whether a brain shot is successful or not, not neccesarily the case with heart/lung shots (though there is NO EXCUSE for missing that huge target.)

It has been said, "you hunt an elephant with your feet, you merely execute him with your rifle." This is true with regard to heart/lung shots, but not so much using a brain shot which, imo, throws in an entirely element of excitement to the hunt, and more satidfaction - or less in case of an imperfect brain shot.

BTW, I have never witnessed a heart/lung shot elephant screaming or spewing gore wildly. But you can see the tremendous fear in their eyes, which I think is knowledge of forthcoming death, and I find that unpleasant in the extreme. In addition, in my experience, almost every ele that has gone down from a heart/lung shot NEEDed a killing brain shot since most have still been alive, though down and imobile, when we reached them. Looking, at the close range of a couple of yards, into that baleful eye that knows death is iminent is even more unpleasant than seeing the panic and fear as the elephant flees.

JPK

Why does no one in his right sense of mind ever take a brain shot on a Buffalo? (except when charging) Answer: So as not to damage the trophy! - by strict instruction almost all shots are directed at the chest cavity in order to inflict the maximum damage and hopefully drop him with the first shot (which is pretty rare); we all discuss with great fervor which bullet will do the best job but because a Buffalo is not an Elephant does not mean it has no premonition on what's to come when it spews blood from its lungs or feels that burning sensation (it must feel something after a Barnes X or Bear Claw has gone through it's chest).

For any animal large and small, when death is imminent it sure as hell knows it (especially from a gunshot wound) as aptly described in the preceding text: "that baleful eye that knows death is iminent is even more unpleasant than seeing the panic and fear".

The brain shot therefore is IMO something personal...ego maybe?

I wonder how the author of a botched brain shot on an elephant feels after he's had to put several body shots into it to stop and put it down?
I've always seen photos with the widest of grins on the hunter yet the truth on the sequence of events that led to the photo are rarely revealed

First, I believe that elephant are sentient beings (hope the spelling was close enough to convey my though, put here as: elephants are thinking beings, in a small catagory of living beings including people, dolphins and some if not all of the great apes, maybe others?) while buffalo are not. So I think that elephant fear and panic is more than instinctual.

I don't think buff or deer or most all other living beings can reason that the pain they feel from a gunshot into their vitals will, or may?, cause death. Their instinctual fear is for the moment, not for the consequences of the pain.

{An interesting analogy or maybe example would be falling from a great height, if you or I fall, we will not fear falling through air, we will fear the landing, our death, a thinking fear, putting one and one together and getting two. And so to other sentient (sp?) beings. Drop a buff off a great height and it will fear the fall, or maybe not having purchase with its hoofs - an instinctual fear. No fear of the consequences of free falling.}

BTW, I have never seen the intense fear and panic in the eyes of any other animal than an elephant. I've also never seen rage in the eyes of anyother animal either, but the rage in the eyes of an elephant is unmistakable, imo.

As the "author" of more than one botched brain shot, I can attest that the feelings and emotions encountered are stong and mixed, as they are when the shot is perfect. I think they would be different for different hunters as well. For me, when I've botched a brain shot, there is little emotion in the moment, just the realization of the failure and of the nessecity to correct it as quickly and as best as possible. When the action has ended, perfect shot or not, there is a panalopy of emotions that set in. My hands shake with addrenelin after killing an elephant, either with a perfect shot first shot or not, more with a perfect shot I think. If I've botched the shot, first comes great relief, great disapointment at one's own failure, huge sadness at the death of a fantastic beast like an elephant - and this is no different than with a perfect brain shot, and more intense with elephants than any other animal for me, some satisfaction if you've cured your error yourself, with a good heart/lung follow up or, best, a second brain shot, some joy eminating from the trackers and game scout who see many a lunch and dinner lying there in the form of the elephant, some elation, great elation when your one bullet has brained the elephant... many more emotions, often surging and changing back and forth. Killing an elephant is, at least for me, hugely emotional, whether done with a perfect brain shot or done in a running gunfight with the PH pitching in after I've botched a brain shot. No escaping - and who would want to - total, bear realization that, but for you, the elephant would not be dead.

The gamut of rapidly chaging emotions, which are intense for hours, linger for days and more.

I can feel the differnt emotions as I sit here and wright this and I haven't killed an elephant since November.

The mix of emotions is a hell of a lot better when you've made a perfect brain shot, that is for real.

You can look through some of the photos of me with elephants, some taken almost immeadiately after killing one, some the next day at recovery. There's a fair sample here on AR. Some show my elation, some satisfaction, some seem more to show sadness, maybe resignation. Some of the grins might be elation, some might be relief, some might be joy picked up from the trackers or gamescout, since real, freely expressed joy seems their universal reaction when an elephant is killed.

Not every photo you will see of me with a dead elephant here on AR is the result of a perfect brain shot, but the emotions depicted are different, even with those that are. Same with those that died from my own second shot, or from heart/lung shots, mine and/or the PH's. All of the photos acknowledge, in one way or another, that I have been singly and totally responsible for the death of a great creature.

I'll add that if you read my hunt reports, you will find that I disclose my errors, acknowledge that not all of my shots have been true, on elephants or on other animals. I do not pretend the false "internet perfection" that is so prevelent.

Is there an element of ego in my choice of the brain shot? Perhaps, but I truly prefer to kill them that way, so that their life is extinguished instantly while they may be enraged or curious or oblivious, but not in fear and panic, especially lingering fear and panic.

Is there an element of ego in my love of and drive to hunt elephants? There must be, and what the hell is wrong with that?

I'll tell you that I prefer frontal brain shots, which all but requires the elephant to be aware of you when you pull the trigger. To make sure that they are aware of me, I advance when possible until they turn to me or until they raise their head to look at me. 89% of my first shots have been frontal brain shots, and all but one of those elephant was aware of me when I raised my rifle. Most frontal shots are made between 10 and 15 yards.

I'll also tell you that when approaching an elephant witht the intention of killing it, I get sweaty palms and dry mouth at about 20yds. I noticed that a lot of video of me approaching or shooting an elephant feature me with a hard candy in my mouth - it dawned on me that I'd unconsciously gotten in the habit of slipping a candy in my mouth to aleviate the dry mouth - and a lot of video captures me wiping my hands on my short or shorts to dry those sweaty palms, another unconscious act.

At times, I need to coax myself forward once within 15 yds, other times the opposite. Sometimes fear, sometimes not. And this is what makes elephant hunting like no other hunting to me.

JPK